Are Iraqi Children Being Freed from Political Imprisonment by US Marines?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the release of Iraqi children from a prison by U.S. Marines during military operations in Baghdad, as well as the broader context of civilian and military casualties during the conflict. Participants explore various claims regarding the reasons for the children's imprisonment and the accuracy of casualty figures reported by different sources.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant reports that U.S. Marines freed over 160 Iraqi children who were imprisoned for refusing to join Saddam's political party for youth, with some allegedly imprisoned for up to five years.
  • Another participant questions the reliability of casualty figures reported by Iraqi state TV, suggesting that they may not differentiate between civilians killed by coalition forces and those killed by the Iraqi government.
  • There is a debate about whether government employees should be classified as combatants, with one participant expressing uncertainty about this classification.
  • Some participants speculate on the potential inflation or deflation of casualty numbers, with one suggesting that the actual number of Iraqi military casualties could be significantly higher than reported.
  • Concerns are raised about the lack of accurate casualty figures from reputable organizations like the Red Cross.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the reliability of casualty figures and the classification of government employees as combatants. There is no consensus on the accuracy of reported numbers or the implications of these classifications.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the available data, including the dependence on sources like Iraqi state TV and the lack of independent verification of casualty figures.

Alias
5th Marines enter Baghdad suburbs

WITH THE FIFTH MARINES, Iraq, April 8 (UPI) -- U.S. Marines rolled into northeastern suburbs of Baghdad Tuesday where thousands of cheering Iraqis yelled, "America, America, America," and "Bush, Bush, Bush." The Marines, led by Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, entered the area after fording a tributary of the Tigris River. Iraqis held up children, waved white flags and showed no hostile intent. The sincerity of their emotions was unquestionable. The crescendo of welcome increased as an Iraqi woman led the Marines to a children's prison where than more than 160 youngsters were freed.

I 'heard' that the reason they were imprisoned was because they refused to join some branch of Saddam's political party for youth. I also 'heard' that some had been in prison for as long as five years.

These are Iraqi children.
 
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This quoted from cnn.com

"Iraq has not released details of military casualties. Abu Dhabi TV, quoting official Iraqi sources, reported that 1,252 civilians have been killed and 5,103 wounded. CNN cannot independently verify those figures."

These number seem to jive well with the following count...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm

And also the 120+ coalition casualties. You can see them here...

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html

Anyone seen estimates on the number of Iraqi combatant casualties?
 
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Originally posted by Alias
These number seem to jive well with the following count...
One BIG problem with that site, Alias. Notice how the max and min mumbers are so close together (usually identical)? Thats because virtually *ALL* of the reports have one source: Iraqi state TV. And notice Iraqi state TV isn't listed as a news outlet.

I wonder: does Iraqi state tv differentiate between civilans killed by the coalition and civilians they killed themselves? Such as the civilians shelled and shot in Basra?

Also, that doesn't separate out government employees. I'm making an assumption here, but it would appear they are considered civilians. But a government employee (yes, even the janitor) is a combatant.
 
Russ, I agree you 100% about the iraqbodycount.net site. But I don't know about classifying govt employees as "combatants"... since I work for a state university, that would make me a combatant, too, wouldn't it? Hmm.
 
Well if those numbers are inflated, then the news is better. It still seems like relatively small numbers considering how much damage has been inflicted, and the goals of the operation.

Of course, I am not discounting ANY human loss. But as they say, "The needs of the many..."
 
not inflated, deflated.
 
Originally posted by kyleb
not inflated, deflated.

Well, I've been waiting on the Red Cross or some other legitimate organization to give an accurate number..you must have info others have yet to see. Care to share a link or reference?
 
  • #10
BTW, Alias, no one seems to be speculating about Iraqi military casualties... I've been looking. Just from direct reports (X many killed in battle Y) I'd personally guess the number is 10,000 minimum, probably far higher.
 
  • #11
Originally posted by damgo
But I don't know about classifying govt employees as "combatants"... since I work for a state university, that would make me a combatant, too, wouldn't it? Hmm.
No, AFAIK, state universities are only funded by the state, not run by it. Not sure though. Either way, they are not part of the command structure. Maybe I should qualify my statement: federal government employees.
not inflated, deflated.
You're not suggesting the Iraqis would UNDERstate the civilian casualty total, are you kyle?

damgo, I was thinking more on the order of 100,000-300,000 by now. Rumor has it we killed 250,000 in the first Gulf War.
 
  • #12
Originally posted by kat
Well, I've been waiting on the Red Cross or some other legitimate organization to give an accurate number..you must have info others have yet to see. Care to share a link or reference?

oh no kat sorry, i was just referring to damgo comment about classifying govt employees as "combatants"; i have no clue what a honest total would be.
 
  • #13
Kyleb-Ah, ok, thanks.