The Slithy Toves

[wavelength]

"The Slithy Toves Did Gyre And Gimble In The Wabe"
This describes the motion of "particles" and "waves".
What is your opinion on our lack of an appropriate analogy to explain the behavior of electrons in an "orbit" "around" a nucleus?
Do you think the general public will ever begin to grasp the quantom world?What do you think should be done to educate the public/what should be taught in school?


"But hey, im only 17, what do i know" --me
"Math, my dear boy, is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology" --Peter Griffin

[chroot]

Originally posted by wavelength
"The Slithy Toves Did Gyre And Gimble In The Wabe"
This describes the motion of "particles" and "waves".
It does? I thought quantum mechanics did that, and Lewis Carroll wrote poems. Silly me.
What is your opinion on our lack of an appropriate analogy to explain the behavior of electrons in an "orbit" "around" a nucleus?
Are you asking "what is your opinion on the fact that the microscopic world is different than the macroscopic world?"

My answer is simple: why should the microscopic world have to be the same? What analogy do you think we're "missing?"
Do you think the general public will ever begin to grasp the quantom world?
There are many, many popular books about it. How much a layman actually understands quantum mechanics after reading such a popular treatment, though, is up for debate.
What do you think should be done to educate the public/what should be taught in school?
The public can only know so much. This is like asking "do you think the general public will ever begin to grasp neurophysiology? What should be done to educate the public about neurophysiology?" I say -- nothing should be done. Not everyone needs to know anything about neurophysiology, and not everyone needs to know anything about quantum mechanics. If one really wants to know quantum mechanics (or neurophysiology), one should take a class on it, and learn it.

What's really intriguing to me is the way that physics appeals to the public mind much more so than any other technical field. You don't see a shelf of paperbacks about, oh, physical chemistry or neurosurgery at Barnes & Noble. It is unfortunate that, at least for the time being, it takes quite a lot of effort and quite a lot of time to learn physics. Perhaps one day when we have it all figured out, a new hero like Feynman will be able to teach schoolchildren everything about physics in a lunch lecture with a couple of slides. Until then, the public will have to stay decidedly pedestrian.

- Warren

[quartodeciman]

Teach orbitals.

grand orbital table --->
http://www.orbitals.com/orb/orbtable.htm

atomic and molecular orbitals -->
http://web.mit.edu/3.091/www/orbs/

[Chi Meson]

Originally posted by wavelength
[BDo you think the general public will ever begin to grasp the quantom world?What do you think should be done to educate the public/what should be taught in school?
[/B]

Public schools are still teaching things like "centrifugal force" and "Columbus discovered America" and "The Bernoulli Effect causes airplanes to fly." Most teachers don't know the difference between energy, force, and power.We are a long way off from having quantum entering the curriculum.

[arcnets]

Originally posted by wavelength
What do you think should be done to educate the public/what should be taught in school?

Really don't know what 'Jabberwocky' has to do with it. But when teaching physics at school, there arise some questions which can (should) be answered by mentioning quantum theory:

- What exactly makes the difference between a liquid and a solid?

- What exactly is the difference between a conductor and an insulator?

- Why do they use 'electron shells' in chemistry?

- Why is UV not seen, but causes sunburn?

- Why can a source have defined voltage (=energy/electron)?

[Njorl]

Originally posted by chroot

The public can only know so much. This is like asking "do you think the general public will ever begin to grasp neurophysiology? What should be done to educate the public about neurophysiology?" I say -- nothing should be done. Not everyone needs to know anything about neurophysiology, and not everyone needs to know anything about quantum mechanics. If one really wants to know quantum mechanics (or neurophysiology), one should take a class on it, and learn it.


- Warren

I couldn't agree more. Hell, I'm a physicist and I had to essentially draw lines as to how deep my understanding of certain fields will go. Time is limited and, unfortunately, a lot is "out of my weight class" so to speak.

I would rather the general public learned a little more about probabiity and statistics. When lotteries are no longer profitable to run, then we can worry about educating the masses about the wonders of quantum mechanics.

Njorl

PS - I'm all in favor of working Jabberwocky into the conversation whenever possible. I don't see how it applies here, but I salute the effort.

[turin]

Originally posted by Chi Meson
Public schools are still teaching things like ... "The Bernoulli Effect causes airplanes to fly."Are you saying this isn't true?

[turin]

Originally posted by wavelength
"The Slithy Toves Did Gyre And Gimble In The Wabe"
This describes the motion of "particles" and "waves".I'm confused. I thought that this was about badgers digging into a hill.

[quartodeciman]

here is the whole-----

Jabberwocky
by Lewis Carroll
from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872


`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

[mmwave]

Originally posted by turin
Are you saying this isn't true?

Many people are. Search for Bernoulli and angle of attack and you will quite a few articles on the web.

Basically, while the Bernoulli effect is present it is the reaction force due to the air hitting the wings at an angle relative to the direction of travel (the angle of attack of the wings) that contributes most of the lift . For a 747 it's only 20% Bermnoulli effect. Hold a flat piece of cardboard out the window of a car while someone else drives. Tilt the cardboard at angle to the ground and feel the lift. It can't be Bernoulli effect since the cardboard is flat!

There might be a thread on this somewhere in physics forum. Other wise continue in another subcategory.

[wavelength]

damn, i thought i remembered what EXACTLY that pertained to, my point was still clear, the frame of refrence. Good discussion tho.

"But hey, im only 17, what do i know." --me
"Math, my dear boy, is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology."--Peter Griffin

[Njorl]

I may be as mad as a hatter, but I think I'm beginning to see a connection between some aspects of QM and Jabberwockey. Take any of Carroll's nonsense words. Consider it in isolation and it is meaningless. Read a whole line, and the nonsense conveys an image. Now consider an electron's position, locallized to an infinitesmal speck. It is essentially nonsense. "Read" it in a state equation and it makes sense.

As an aside, has anyone read James Thurber's, "What do you mean it was Brillig?"

Njorl

[FZ+]

It does? I thought quantum mechanics did that, and Lewis Carroll wrote poems. Silly me.
Heh. It seems a very obscure reference.

I think it comes from the book "In Search of Schrodinger's Cat", where the author argues that the use of neo-classical terms in QM in fact impede continued research into field, by adding baggage that do not belong. For example, spin gives a visualisation of spin as a spinning top, which is useful in some quarters but downright misleading in others. The author proposed that QM effects should be studied in their own right with avoidance of the use of real-world analogies. From our understanding of quantum strangeness, it is more helpful to just define our own slithy toves that interact by gyre and gimble, than confuse ourselves with contextually meaningless stuff like billard balls and ocean ripples.

[arcnets]

"Three quarks for Muster Mark..." [:D] [:D] [:D]

[chroot]

Originally posted by FZ+
For example, spin gives a visualisation of spin as a spinning top, which is useful in some quarters but downright misleading in others.
I see your point; it's a common one. However, it only takes one sentence to defeat the problem:

The word 'spin' in quantum mechanics does not mean the same thing as 'spin' means in your normal, macroscopic experience.

Done.

- Warren

[Integral]

Originally posted by chroot
I see your point; it's a common one. However, it only takes one sentence to defeat the problem:

The word 'spin' in quantum mechanics does not mean the same thing as 'spin' means in your normal, macroscopic experience.

Done.

- Warren

Easy to say, now just get the word out to all the bright High School students out the who are seeing some of this stuff for the first time. Unfortunately they hear or read the word spin long before they get the message that to QM spin isn't spin.

I think it comes from the book "In Search of Schroedinger's Cat",

This book is by John Gribbon, it is an entraining read for those who already know and understand the Physics, and an informative read for those attempting to learn. I just scanned my copy (not an in depth search and could not find the reference. I do recall reading this analogy with the Lewis Carroll quote, perhaps it was in the sequel "In search of Schroedinger's Kittens"

[selfAdjoint]

Gribbin ought to do a third book in that series. There have been some great counterintuitive experiments done since "Kittens" came out. That bomb testing one, for example. And the brand new Bell inequalities one with mesons.