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-   -   So much for controlling the border (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=150161)

edward Jan5-07 02:43 PM

So much for controlling the border
 
They just keep getting bolder. Although this was probably a diversion tactic perpetrated by drug runners, drug runners and illegal alien smugglers are now the same people.


Quote:

TUCSON, Ariz. — National Guard troops working at an observatory post near the Mexican border were forced to flee after being approached by a group of armed individuals, authorities said.

The event occurred about 11 p.m. Wednesday at one of the National Guard entrance identification team posts near Sasabe, said National Guard Sgt. Edward Balaban.

He said the troops withdrew safely, no shots were fired and no one suffered injuries.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,241783,00.html

It appears that all of the pre-election big talk about securing the border has been forgotten. I still have to take off my shoes to get on an airplane, yet armed criminals can cross the border at will.

Quote:

U.S. Border Patrol officials are investigating the incident and trying to determine who the armed people were, what they were doing and why they approached the post before retreating to Mexico.

berkeman Jan5-07 02:52 PM

Kind of strange ROE in place for those National Guard troops, doesn't it seem? I wonder what their official ROE are?

berkeman Jan5-07 03:20 PM

Weird. This story says it was Border Patrol Agents, not National Guard troops:

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news...ry0104-CR.html

edward Jan5-07 03:29 PM

Quote:

Quote by berkeman (Post 1204667)
Kind of strange ROE in place for those National Guard troops, doesn't it seem? I wonder what their official ROE are?

Not all of them are armed, although those close to the border are supposed to be. I would imagine that they have some strict rules in place so as to avoid shooting at a friendly.

So now who is going to guard the Guard?:grumpy:

There have been a number of border incursions by armed groups in recent months, some dressed in mexican military uniforms.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstor...20061221a.html

edward Jan5-07 03:33 PM

Quote:

Quote by berkeman (Post 1204693)
Weird. This story says it was Border Patrol Agents, not National Guard troops:

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news...ry0104-CR.html

It was a Border Patrol site manned by the Guard. Spotting and reporting to the Boarder Patrol is primarily what the Guard is doing. They are not allowed to apprehend anyone. Edit: They are officially, "National Guard entrance identification teams."

berkeman Jan5-07 03:34 PM

Quote:

Quote by edward (Post 1204703)
Not all of them are armed, although those close to the border are supposed to be. I would imagine that they have some strict rules in place so as to avoid shooting at a friendly.

Hmmm. That's a good point. It would be a real drag to be out rabbit hunting near the border and get hosed by a startled troop that you didn't see. :eek:

BobG Jan5-07 04:54 PM

Quote:

Quote by edward (Post 1204656)
It appears that all of the pre-election big talk about securing the border has been forgotten. I still have to take off my shoes to get on an airplane, yet armed criminals can cross the border at will.

Immigration and securing the border are normally pretty low profile topics among the public. The issues spiked to the top of everyone's list momentarily and now they're sliding back to their normal spot. Tancredo will wear himself out trying to fan the flames high enough for anyone to care whether he runs for President or not.

A smart politician could push through some sort of sensible immigration bill (similar to the McCain-Kennedy bill) if they cared enough to do it when it wouldn't garner them headlines.

McGyver Jan5-07 05:05 PM

Quote:

Quote by BobG (Post 1204776)
A smart politician could push through some sort of sensible immigration bill (similar to the McCain-Kennedy bill) if they cared enough to do it when it wouldn't garner them headlines.

Very True. I think what bothers me most - are the lies (and spin) about illegal immigration! At some point, all the economic numbers, costs data, etc. must be settled. They (Washington) are merely sidelining any corrective action on this problem, and dumping its consequences onto the next generation of Americans! If you did so in business, you'd be fired or run out of town! In Washington, there are few to no consequences for failed leadership.

McGyver Jan5-07 05:18 PM

Quote:

Quote by edward (Post 1204710)
It was a Border Patrol site manned by the Guard. Spotting and reporting to the Boarder Patrol is primarily what the Guard is doing. They are not allowed to apprehend anyone. Edit: They are officially, "National Guard entrance identification teams."

I am wondering if I could get the Guard to do the same as an observer in my next "brain surgery." It was a real fiasco in 1992. Oh - but our government doesn't involve itself in those matters either. They leave it to you to file a civil action, then criticize you if you do. Sound familiar??

edward Jan5-07 05:39 PM

Quote:

Quote by BobG (Post 1204776)
Immigration and securing the border are normally pretty low profile topics among the public. The issues spiked to the top of everyone's list momentarily and now they're sliding back to their normal spot. Tancredo will wear himself out trying to fan the flames high enough for anyone to care whether he runs for President or not.

A smart politician could push through some sort of sensible immigration bill (similar to the McCain-Kennedy bill) if they cared enough to do it when it wouldn't garner them headlines.

When armed illegals can cross the border and force National Guard personnel from their positions, it is time to wake up the politicians. As I mentioned before, who are we supposed to send out to guard the Natioanl Guard?

berkeman Jan5-07 06:58 PM

I still would like to read their ROE. That's at the core of the troubling part of this incident.

edward Jan5-07 08:03 PM

Quote:

Quote by berkeman (Post 1204901)
I still would like to read their ROE. That's at the core of the troubling part of this incident.

This happened close to the border so the Guardsmen would have been armed.
They are allowed to use their weapons to defend themselves against an armed aggressor.

To date there had never been a situation where this was necessary, at least with the NG. It is very unlikely that the Guardsmen had their weapons in their hands. It is has been reported that the intruders did. In the old lingo, the bad guys got the drop on them.

According to my local news, On Wednesday night two Guardsmen apparently decided to flee when suddenly confronted by twelve armed men. They made the right choice.

berkeman Jan5-07 08:11 PM

Well, I obviously wasn't there. But if I were at that station and got surprised, I doubt that I would have run very far before firing accurately. And sure as hell, after this incident, I would be much more ready to react. And sure as hell, the COs involved better make sire that they are ready and that the ROE are appropriate.

Easy for me to say I guess, sitting here in my living room. But in addition to the HAM emergency preparedness notes in my footer, I'm also CERT, ERT, and Guard-Card, so running from the bad guys is wrong IMO.

edward Jan5-07 08:37 PM

Versions from the local news seem to vary a bit. This one seems to paint the picture pretty well.

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp...av=menu216_3_3

berkeman Jan5-07 08:54 PM

Quote:

Quote by edward (Post 1204996)
Versions from the local news seem to vary a bit. This one seems to paint the picture pretty well.

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp...av=menu216_3_3

Quote:

Agent Jim Hawkins said, "The weapons that these individuals were carrying were in plain view. The National Guard soldiers were aware that the individuals were armed and were approaching their position."

The encounter happened near Sasabe at an entry identification sight.

Shots were never fired and no one was injured, but border officials say the approaching men were aggressive, but then they went back in to Mexico.

Hawkins said, "We're still trying to determine how close the individuals came and if they exactly there were any interactions with the Guard and the individuals."
Something has to be wrong about that account. Even us Security Guards/EEs/ERTs have ROE that involves shooting in those situations.

edward Jan5-07 11:19 PM

Quote:

Quote by berkeman (Post 1205012)
Something has to be wrong about that account. Even us Security Guards/EEs/ERTs have ROE that involves shooting in those situations.

The latest local news indicates that the National Guard is to back off to avoid an armed conflict if possible. The Gardsmen saw the armed intruders approaching in time to follow that directive.

This information came from a member of the Minute Man Group who is in touch with the NG.

TheStatutoryApe Jan11-07 09:41 AM

Quote:

Quote by berkeman (Post 1205012)
Something has to be wrong about that account. Even us Security Guards/EEs/ERTs have ROE that involves shooting in those situations.

Really? What happened to observe and report? It only seems logical to me that if there is no immediate threat to life or property (or in this case national security as well) then the best course of action is to back off and keep an eye on them, call in back up just incase. No one was shot or hurt. No shots were fired. Seems like the perfect and proper outcome based on the reaction. If there was a show of force things would have likely gotten pretty messy.

berkeman Jan11-07 12:33 PM

Quote:

Quote by TheStatutoryApe (Post 1209968)
Really? What happened to observe and report? It only seems logical to me that if there is no immediate threat to life or property (or in this case national security as well) then the best course of action is to back off and keep an eye on them, call in back up just incase. No one was shot or hurt. No shots were fired. Seems like the perfect and proper outcome based on the reaction. If there was a show of force things would have likely gotten pretty messy.

People with guns drawn running at you changes things. I haven't gone back and re-read the articles, but maybe their ROE were not to fire unless fired upon. I'm glad that nobody was hurt.


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