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-   -   God does not play dice referred to what exactly? (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=254112)

dimensionless Sep6-08 10:30 AM

"God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
What was Einstein referring to? As I recall Einstein believed some process was non-random, but the general consensus in physics is that it is indeed random.

russ_watters Sep6-08 10:38 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
He was expressing his doubts about quantum mechanics.

Gear300 Sep6-08 10:51 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
yup...he was not very fond of the way quantum theory presented the universe...

Topher925 Sep6-08 10:54 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by russ_watters (Post 1861758)
He was expressing his doubts about quantum mechanics.

Specifically about how quantum mechanics revolves around probability distributions and not finite solutions. An odd quote since Einstein was an atheist.

Doc Al Sep6-08 10:57 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by Topher925 (Post 1861784)
An odd quote since Einstein was an atheist.

What does that have to do with it?

Edit: I just realized that you were probably referring to his use of the word "God", not his discomfort with inherent randomness. I'd say that his use of the term was purely a figure of speech.

russ_watters Sep6-08 11:11 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
It's just an expression, Topher. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about his faith/lack thereof.

Oberst Villa Sep6-08 11:25 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by russ_watters (Post 1861810)
It's just an expression, Topher. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about his faith/lack thereof.

Hmm.. for an atheist he talked about god quite often: "Subtle is the Lord, but malicious He is not" is another qoute from him.

Topher925 Sep6-08 11:38 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by Oberst Villa (Post 1861823)
Hmm.. for an atheist he talked about god quite often: "Subtle is the Lord, but malicious He is not" is another qoute from him.

Back in his time I think atheists were looked down upon by most cultures and to this day that is still true with some people. I think a lot of people played the god card just to maintain their reputation and image. We all know what happened to Galileo.

dimensionless Sep6-08 11:40 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
What specific randomness in quantum theory did he not like?

Gear300 Sep6-08 11:42 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by Topher925 (Post 1861839)
Back in his time I think atheists were looked down upon by most cultures and to this day that is still true with some people. I think a lot of people played the god card just to maintain their reputation and image. We all know what happened to Galileo.

yup...people have only scarcely changed...they are apparently still people

Oberst Villa Sep6-08 11:54 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by dimensionless (Post 1861843)
What specific randomness in quantum theory did he not like?

I think he preferred something like this Hidden Variables stuff: Although the outcome of quantum mechanical experiments might appear random to us, they would be deterministic if only someone (god ?) would at some time know the state of this hidden variables. But as far as I understand it, there has been an experiment some decades ago that showed that this hidden variables cannot exist

Doc Al Sep6-08 11:54 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by dimensionless (Post 1861843)
What specific randomness in quantum theory did he not like?

For example: When you measure an observable on a system represented by a superposition of eigenstates of that observable, the probability of getting a particular eigenvalue is given by the square of the corresponding expansion coefficient for the eigenstate. I think that's the kind of inherent randomness that Einstein was referring to.

Doc Al Sep6-08 11:56 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by Oberst Villa (Post 1861858)
But as far as I understand it, there has been an experiment some decades ago that showed that this hidden variables cannot exist

Those experiments ruled out local hidden variables, not all hidden variables.

TVP45 Sep6-08 06:57 PM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by Topher925 (Post 1861784)
Specifically about how quantum mechanics revolves around probability distributions and not finite solutions. An odd quote since Einstein was an atheist.

I think it is much closer to the truth to say that Einstein was a non-observant Jew. It is difficult for a Jew to remain in the culture (and, to be a Zionist) while completely ignoring G-d.

A Christian generally will not be able to disagree with G-d while yet remaining faithful to the religion. A Jew may well be strengthened in his religion by arguing with, and doubting, G-d.

Oberst Villa Sep8-08 02:46 PM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by Doc Al (Post 1861862)
Those experiments ruled out local hidden variables, not all hidden variables.

Thanks for the correction Doc Al. I found in the meantime a paper that might be of interest and confirms what you said: "Research on Hidden Variable Theories: a review of recent progresses" http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0701071
(Section 6 is about Non-Local Realistic theories, i.e. hidden variable theories that have not been ruled out by experiment)

Obviously, I was quite wrong with my assumption that there was one single experiment and that it closed the case for good.

Bad Monkey Sep10-08 08:09 AM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Re Einstein and "god" references, read:

http://richarddawkins.net/firstChapter,1

Pythagorean Sep10-08 08:10 PM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Quote:

Quote by TVP45 (Post 1862289)
I think it is much closer to the truth to say that Einstein was a non-observant Jew. It is difficult for a Jew to remain in the culture (and, to be a Zionist) while completely ignoring G-d.

A Christian generally will not be able to disagree with G-d while yet remaining faithful to the religion. A Jew may well be strengthened in his religion by arguing with, and doubting, G-d.

Einstein wasn't Jewish (religion-wise), he was a deist, not a theist.

LightbulbSun Sep10-08 11:43 PM

Re: "God does not play dice" referred to what exactly?
 
Einstein was a naturalist. So when he mentioned "God" he was referring to the universe.


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