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Gokul43201 May27-10 09:32 AM

Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Anti-Homosexuality in Africa - and the influence of American Evangelists

Earlier this month, a Presidential Commission in Uganda recommended against passing an anti-homosexuality bill (proposed last year) which punishes homosexuals with life imprisonment (and the death penalty for repeat "offenses" or being an HIV-positive gay) and imprisonment for others who refuse to inform the police about people they know to be homosexuals.

Quote:

Quote by Wikipedia
The African nation of Uganda proposed an Anti-Homosexuality Bill on 13 October 2009 that would, if enacted, broaden the criminalisation of homosexuality by introducing the death penalty for people who have previous convictions, are HIV-positive, or engage in same sex acts with people under 18 years of age. The bill also includes provisions for Ugandans who engage in same-sex sexual relations outside of Uganda, asserting that they may be extradited for punishment back to Uganda, and includes penalties for individuals, companies, media organisations, or non-governmental organisations that support LGBT rights.

Homosexuality is currently illegal in Uganda—as it is in many sub-Saharan African countries—punishable by incarceration in prison for up to 14 years. The proposed legislation in Uganda, however, has been noted by several news agencies to be inspired by American evangelical Christians. A special motion to introduce the legislation was passed a month after a two-day conference was held where three American Christians asserted that homosexuality was a direct threat to the cohesion of African families. The bill, the government of Uganda, and the evangelicals involved have received significant international media attention and criticism from Western governments, some of whom have threatened to cut off financial aid to Uganda. The bill may soften the strongest penalties for the most egregious offenses to life imprisonment.

Uganda's parliament was predicted to enter discussions about passing the bill in late February or March 2010.[1] However, intense international reaction to the bill caused President Yoweri Museveni to form a commission to investigate the implications of passing the bill. In May 2010 the committee recommended withdrawing it.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_...sexuality_Bill

While the bill appears to be overwhelmingly supported by the public, the only reason it hasn't yet passed is because Uganda's economy is hugely supported by foreign aid (to the extent of about a third), and there has been a strong backlash from donor nations. Sweden, for instance, has threatened to pull all aid if the bill passes.

I recently watched an investigative report on this issue made by Peabody Award winner and journalist, Mariana van Zeller, working with the Vanguard documentary series:

LINK to documentary (watch it!) ====> http://www.hulu.com/watch/150328/van...naries-of-hate

We will have to wait and see how this plays out over the coming months. Among the American Evangelical preachers who were key players in Uganda, the only prominent one who has openly denounced the bill appears to be Rick Warren. Others, like Scot Lively support the bill, but oppose the death penalty requirement. Within Uganda, some proponents of the bill (especially Catholic churches) are pushing for a version of the bill without the death penalty, expecting that it will then see weaker opposition from foreign influences.

Feel free to voice your thoughts on the issue, but please stay on topic. It is much too easy to drift away into tangential discussions, so let's try to be mindful of that.

Other references:

1. " Homosexuality in “Traditional” Sub-Saharan Africa and Contemporary South
Africa" (2005), Stephen O. Murray - [link to pdf file]

2. MSNBC's Rachel Maddow ran a series on this issue:


3. AP article about progress of the bill, Jan 2010: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010803673.html

zomgwtf May27-10 10:16 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Lol, I love the 'Uganda be kidding me' hahahahahaha.

I believe however that an anti-homosexuality thought line has been in Africa for a fairly long time. I'm tempted to say prior to Christian missions there but I'm not entirely sure so I'll look it up. The Evangelical preaching probably led to a belief that they need to make it a more 'severe type of crime'.

Personally I think that all nations have the right to act on their own and in the best interests of their nation. So if they feel this is a law they must pass then so be-it. If Sweden feels that they must pull aid out of Uganda, then so be it... I think that it'd be more than just Sweden pulling out aid however, even if they follow the Catholic Churches version.

I think that it would be fair game to play hardball with Uganda if this bill goes through, I mean really what does Uganda have to offer to the world? A bit of copper? Who cares??? The only reason people really help them is specifically to help the people. I do not think they get anything in return for that investment other than knowing the people have a better chance to live in one of the poorest nations in the world. If they start killing or jailing people of the nation which the support nations are specifically trying to protect(all the citizens) then I don't see any further reason support should flow in.

QUESTION: Does any other African nation hold a similar law already in place and actively used?

leroyjenkens May27-10 10:21 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Personally I think that all nations have the right to act on their own and in the best interests of their nation. So if they feel this is a law they must pass then so be-it.
This is basically just as bad as what Hitler was doing to the Jews. You don't think that deserves intervention?

zomgwtf May27-10 10:32 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Quote by leroyjenkens (Post 2735752)
This is basically just as bad as what Hitler was doing to the Jews. You don't think that deserves intervention?

If other nations think it's in their best-interest to intervene then of course that means intervention. I don't see how that's hard to understand and I don't see why you had to fall to Godwins Law so early on in the thread.

I'm pretty sure I drew out that a country acting in it's best interest certainly can take support out and even go further. Way to selectively quote and then try to 'attack' a misrepresentation of what I had actually said.

Gokul43201 May27-10 10:36 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Quote by zomgwtf (Post 2735743)
Lol, I love the 'Uganda be kidding me' hahahahahaha.

I believe however that an anti-homosexuality thought line has been in Africa for a fairly long time. I'm tempted to say prior to Christian missions there but I'm not entirely sure so I'll look it up. The Evangelical preaching probably led to a belief that they need to make it a more 'severe type of crime'.

Yes, homosexuality has been taboo in Africa since long before the missionaries got there. In fact, if I recall correctly, one of the US pastors (in the documentary) cites this as a big reason for their focused interest in spreading Christianity through Africa.

Quote:

QUESTION: Does any other African nation hold a similar law already in place and actively used?
At least a dozen countries in sub-Saharan Africa have banned homosexuality, but the punishment has never risen to the level of life imprisonment or death. While some countries, like China, have never had laws banning sodomy, most western countries have lad laws in the books until only relatively recently. Among the earliest countries in the west to fully legalize homosexuality were the Scandinavians, early in the 20th Century. Most other countries followed suit between 1960 and the 80s. Texas' sodomy law was struck down by the US Supreme Court less than a decade ago. Some Commonwealth countries (like India) that did not previously have laws against sodomy, inherited them from the British penal code. India's Supreme Court finally struck down its anti-gay part of the penal code only last year. Singapore still retains section 377 (the part of British Penal Code that bans homosexual acts), but has reduced the punishment to 2 years in jail (a walk in the park, compared to their drug violation terms). Russia threw out its sodomy laws when the USSR broke up, and it started out with a fresh constitution. Of course, some countries that no longer have laws against gays in general still discriminate against them in the military.

zomgwtf May27-10 10:41 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Quote by Gokul43201 (Post 2735769)
At least a dozen countries in sub-Saharan Africa have banned homosexuality, but the punishment has never risen to the level of life imprisonment or death. In that regard, they are really not that far behind Texas!

Hmm, well I hope that this bill does not pass through, and I hope that if it does pass that countries do withdraw support in Uganda. This could very well set a precedent for the other nations to take a more severe approach to dealing with homosexuality if they perceive that 'nothing will come of it' in terms of support they receive. We can't allow that to happen (not saying it will 100% but we shouldn't allow an opportunity to arise).

I'd imagine though that homosexuality is 'rare' in African, at least open homosexuality.

leroyjenkens May27-10 10:52 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

If other nations think it's in their best-interest to intervene then of course that means intervention. I don't see how that's hard to understand and I don't see why you had to fall to Godwins Law so early on in the thread.
I had to look that one up, I didn't know what Godwin's Law is. But you used it wrong.
"Godwin's Law" isn't just the referencing of Hitler.
Quote:

I'm pretty sure I drew out that a country acting in it's best interest certainly can take support out and even go further. Way to selectively quote and then try to 'attack' a misrepresentation of what I had actually said.
Yeah, they can do this and they can do that. They can do anything they want. I was just asking if you thought it deserved intervention. I do. Like if someone is getting attacked on the street, my position is that if someone sees it, they should do what they can to help. Not "well if they want to help, they can, if they don't want to, they can do that too".

zomgwtf May27-10 11:24 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Quote by leroyjenkens (Post 2735791)
Yeah, they can do this and they can do that. They can do anything they want. I was just asking if you thought it deserved intervention. I do. Like if someone is getting attacked on the street, my position is that if someone sees it, they should do what they can to help. Not "well if they want to help, they can, if they don't want to, they can do that too".

You'd be surprised how many people don't help. It is a choice we have, I like you agree that we should help. We also shouldn't allow gross crimes against humanity occur, but we allow that to happen to. (ever heard of Darfur? Rwanda? yes even the Holocaust.) There's always a choice to not help.

If you go on youtube I'm sure you can find plenty of videos where people are recording someone fighting for their life, or dying on the floor and people just walk on by them. There was security footage of this one guy who was shot, he was laying there bleeding to death and NO ONE attempted to help him, in fact one guy even stopped and took a picture of him... We lived in a messed up world.

As well here's Godwins Law:
Quote:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

leroyjenkens May27-10 11:34 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

You'd be surprised how many people don't help. It is a choice we have, I like you agree that we should help. We also shouldn't allow gross crimes against humanity occur, but we allow that to happen to. (ever heard of Darfur? Rwanda? yes even the Holocaust.) There's always a choice to not help.

If you go on youtube I'm sure you can find plenty of videos where people are recording someone fighting for their life, or dying on the floor and people just walk on by them. There was security footage of this one guy who was shot, he was laying there bleeding to death and NO ONE attempted to help him, in fact one guy even stopped and took a picture of him... We lived in a messed up world.
I'm aware of all of that. Everything's a choice, but I believe there are things people should or shouldn't do, regardless of the fact that they have a choice. I'd like to believe other good people think the same way and not "well if they want to help that dying man, they can, but if they don't, that's their choice".
Quote:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.
I don't see how that applies to me. The mere utterance of his name doesn't fit that definition.

zomgwtf May27-10 11:42 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Quote by leroyjenkens (Post 2735841)
I'm aware of all of that. Everything's a choice, but I believe there are things people should or shouldn't do, regardless of the fact that they have a choice. I'd like to believe other good people think the same way and not "well if they want to help that dying man, they can, but if they don't, that's their choice".

Well first of all I don't see how your personal opinion matters much to what I had originally stated. But, to bring this back on topic, dealing with international sanctions and withdrawl of personal aid to one of the poorest nations in the world is hardly a simple choice to make. I think I expressed my opinion on this matter quite clearly in my original post.

Quote:

I don't see how that applies to me. The mere utterance of his name doesn't fit that definition.
Well first, yes that's what Godwins Law DOES mean(unless it's a thread specifically about Hitler and Nazi's then it obviously doesn't apply). It just means that as any online discussion continues (on for infinity) the probabilty of a comparisson being made to Nazi's or Hitler approaches 1 (100%). You fulfilled that within the first 3 posts of this thread :rofl:. As an aside you didn't 'merely utter his name' You made a direct comparisson to what 'Hitler did to the Jews'. So your wrong on both counts here. You sure do love to argue I've noticed and it seems to me more often than not that you are always on the side with little to no support. Do you just like playing devils advocate or are you just a very argumentatitive person?

leroyjenkens May27-10 12:28 PM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Well first of all I don't see how your personal opinion matters much to what I had originally stated. But, to bring this back on topic, dealing with international sanctions and withdrawl of personal aid to one of the poorest nations in the world is hardly a simple choice to make. I think I expressed my opinion on this matter quite clearly in my original post.
And then I asked a question which you lost your temper over for no apparent reason.
Quote:

Well first, yes that's what Godwins Law DOES mean(unless it's a thread specifically about Hitler and Nazi's then it obviously doesn't apply).
So any time someone compares anything with Hitler, it's "Godwin's law"? No. That's just the probability of it happening (which is a fake probability in the first place).
Quote:

You sure do love to argue I've noticed and it seems to me more often than not that you are always on the side with little to no support.
I like to discuss things, which is something people like you aren't capable of without getting upset and resorting to ad hominem.
1.) I can't argue with myself. That's pretty interesting that someone arguing with me is calling me out for being argumentative.
2.) I have no support in here, as opposed to your hordes of supporters? Please name them.

Proton Soup May27-10 03:26 PM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
we should send Ted Haggard on a fact-finding mission

mgb_phys May27-10 03:47 PM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
I'm confused - if black people had bad things done to them in the past , doesn't that mean that anything black people do can't be bad?

Mu naught May27-10 04:10 PM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Quote by zomgwtf (Post 2735763)
If other nations think it's in their best-interest to intervene then of course that means intervention. I don't see how that's hard to understand and I don't see why you had to fall to Godwins Law so early on in the thread.

I'm pretty sure I drew out that a country acting in it's best interest certainly can take support out and even go further. Way to selectively quote and then try to 'attack' a misrepresentation of what I had actually said.

This type of logic is completely flawed. It might be in my best interested to kill you and steal your money - so that makes it permissible?

zomgwtf May27-10 04:20 PM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Quote by Mu naught (Post 2736204)
This type of logic is completely flawed. It might be in my best interested to kill you and steal your money - so that makes it permissible?

Permissible to who? To yourself? Of course. To me? No... now let's see who has got the bigger guns, or the most support.

You forget, we're talking about an entire nation here. I don't think my logic is flawed at all... in fact it's somewhat borrowed from von Clausewitz.

Actually I'd say your logic is flawed. Do you really think it's in your best interest to kill me and steal my money? Worth going to jail over the 80$ in my wallet? I don't know... you might be being dishonest to yourself. It'd probably be in your best interest to ask me to borrow some money though.

aquitaine May28-10 05:49 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Evanglical christrianity, like what we saw backing up the Bush administration, has been growing rapidly, not just in the US but also in many parts of the non-islamic third world, spreading their poison and intolerance to places where there is little to no firmly established progressivists to moderate their hate.


What's also interesting to note is at the same time in the islamic world there has been a big rise in their version of evangelism: wahabbist islam. Personally I feel with both of these groups on the rise after a few decades it will cause a lot of trouble.


EDIT:

Quote:

While some countries, like China, have never had laws banning sodomy
This isn't true, it was decriminalized in 1999 and there has been a huge bias against homosexuals for a few centuries now.

Gokul43201 May28-10 07:38 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Quote by aquitaine (Post 2736964)
EDIT:

This isn't true, it was decriminalized in 1999 and there has been a huge bias against homosexuals for a few centuries now.

I am not well-read on this subject, and what little knowledge I have comes from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China

From what I read, while there has long been a cultural bias against homosexuality, it has never risen anywhere near the level of homophobia prevalent in the west. In fact, Taoism preaches that it is good for everyone to have a balance of yin and yang. Some dynasties treated homosexuality as a mild crime, but the taboo grew significantly only as recently as the mid-20th century.

Quote:

Quote by wiki
The Qing Dynasty instituted the first law against consensual, non-monetized homosexuality in China. It has been construed that this may have been part of an attempt to limit all personal expression outside government-monitored relationships, coming in response to the social chaos at the end of the Ming Dynasty. The punishment, which included a month in prison and 100 heavy blows, was actually the lightest punishment which existed in the Qing legal system.[44]

The homosexual tradition in China was largely censured as antiquated by the Self-Strengthening Movement, when homophobia was imported to China along with Western science and philosophy, but some interest in the past remained.
...
A notable change occurred during the late 1990s and early 2000s with the removal in 1997 of "hooliganism" from the criminal law, a de facto decriminalization of homosexuality. In April 20, 2001, the Chinese Classification of Mental Disorders formally removed homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses.[45][46]
...
Many cases show that gay people still have to endure prejudice from the justice system and harassment from police, including detention and arrest. In October 1999, a Beijing court ruled that homosexuality was "abnormal and unacceptable to the Chinese public",[53] which was the first time this official attitude was stated openly. Another notable case happened in July 2001, when at least 37 gay men were detained in Guangdong. In late April 2004, the State Administration of Radio, Film, and Television (国家广播电影电视总局) initiated a campaign to clear violence and sexual content from the media. Programmes related to homosexual topic, scene, or language are considered to be "going against the healthy way of life in China", and are banned.

PS: I do not wish to get into detail about gay rights in China. If you wish to add anything to this, I will let that be the last word on the Chinese situation, lest we derail the thread from its primary intent.

Pattonias May28-10 08:13 AM

Re: Anti-Homosexuality in Africa
 
Quote:

Quote by aquitaine (Post 2736964)
Evanglical christrianity, like what we saw backing up the Bush administration, has been growing rapidly, not just in the US but also in many parts of the non-islamic third world, spreading their poison and intolerance to places where there is little to no firmly established progressivists to moderate their hate.

Seriously? We are going to lump in all evangelical Christians with the few radicals who claim the title?
This would be like saying all Catholics are pedophiles, or all Muslims are terrorists.


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