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Rothiemurchus Sep18-04 06:54 PM

what is consciousness?
 
Consciousness:
we know it occurs when there is electrical activity in our
brains, but what is this thing "consciousness" that is associated with electrical activity?
When we are asleep and unconscious we are not aware of space or time.
So consciousness involves awareness of space and time, or perhaps
just the existence of space and time, relative to me.What do I mean by "me" ?
By "me" I mean some entity,quantity,quality that is different from everything else in the world.A soul perhaps.Perhaps we all have souls made from
a unique combination of masses and charges.An indestructable system of particles that goes on forever and survives Big Bangs and Big crunches.
Each system would have to obey an exclusion principle which says that
"no two souls can be the same in any one universe." Otherwise one person
could be looking out of two bodies!
And what if there is more than one soul per body!
Intuitively we would think this is not the case.
But if the soul is material then there can't be other versions of us living in the past or future,or in parallel universes , or else we would be consciously experiencing those universes now - like watching two television screens at once.

Amir Sep18-04 10:30 PM

“The Soul” you are talking about does not exist, consciousness / awareness “is” the chemical reaction going on / in your biological brain hardware. Actually it’s very simple to test, just give yourself some SSRIs; citalopram, fluoxetine, fluvoxamine, paroxetine and or sertraline and see how your soul reacts. LOL! But I do believe the energy (biological energy, energy found in cells) is not just simple energy this energy actually has memory. As for multiple existences, to me they are more like “memories carryovers” …
only occur in very rear instances, else we will all be copies of mommy and daddy, remembering all what they did and saw up till conception and then a branch off from that.

KaneOris Sep19-04 09:04 AM

Amir, how would we would remember what our parents did up to conception. That has no back up what so ever. Unless you are saying that our cells formed from meiosis have every single memory in them, which just isnt right. And to say that we only remember things very rearly is also very wrong.
The point being that we do not know exactly how the mind actually works, the conscious mind that is. What we know so far is it influenced by chemical reactions, and networked by electrical impulses. Think of it like computer. If you think that its just lots of wires that are connected together, and some go through different substances and circuits with different voltage. Then you would have to think tha it couldnt do anything except flow with electricty. It just like a computer, its a complex system of If gates, Its just about a million times more complex than a computer. For all we know it may come down to single photons.

Fliption Sep19-04 12:55 PM

Quote:

Quote by Rothiemurchus
Consciousness:
we know it occurs when there is electrical activity in our
brains, but what is this thing "consciousness" that is associated with electrical activity?

Do you not think that there is electrical activity in your brain when you are asleep? I think we know very little about consciousness.

Quote:

The Soul” you are talking about does not exist, consciousness / awareness “is” the chemical reaction going on / in your biological brain hardware.
This is a huge assumption with no supporting documentation anywhere. All we know is that consciousness and chemical activity are somehow correlated with one another. This says absolutely nothing about which one causes which nor does it say anything about the concept of "soul". I think this quote above is debating against an outdated preconception about souls and consciousness rather than the modern philosophical issues.

Amir Sep19-04 08:19 PM

Quote:

Quote by Amir
As for multiple existences, to me they are more like “memories carryovers” …
only occur in very rear instances, else we will all be copies of mommy and daddy, remembering all what they did and saw up till conception and then a branch off from that. <-- but we are not! that's what "else" Intended there...


Quote:

Quote by KaneOris
Amir, how would we would remember what our parents did up to conception. That has no back up what so ever. Unless you are saying that our cells formed from meiosis have every single memory in them, which just isnt right. And to say that we only remember things very rearly is also very wrong.

^
|
I didn't say that at all.... Learned memories are almost never! copied over "as is" to next gen/s, not in way we can just lookup things that our moms and or dads did or saw, else we’ll all be copied continuum of our parents.....it would be nice though. But things do get carried over biological as changes in our DNA. These changes are subtle and often relational in nature.

Smurf Sep20-04 12:48 AM

Conciousness is the interface of the mind.

Rothiemurchus Sep20-04 07:39 AM

Fliption:Do you not think that there is electrical activity in your brain when you are asleep? I think we know very little about consciousness.

Rothie M:
Dreams can be seen as a form of consciousness because we are aware of space and time in them.I would say that the correct definition of consciousness is an awaremess of space and time.Electric pulses in the brain are not continuous phenomena but magnetic fields in the brain are.So one can imagine a magnetic field
being the brain's creation of continuous conscious experiences such as
a straight line - electric fields could only produce a dotted line.
In other words the space and time we experience is created by our brains.
It reflects what the atomic world around us really looks like but can never
give us a true experience of that world.We are probably conscious because
our brains are producing particles of very small mass which differ from the
particles found in normal physics.For example they could be moving faster than light.
We have five senses so we need five groups of particles.For a sense like colour where humans can experience 16000 different colours,there will have to be lots of different particles with lots of different properties in one group.So in my view particle physicists have got rather a lot of work to do!They speak of quarks and leptons:in future they will need to speak of a lot more categories.
If the brain produces particles that create consciousness then what we are seeing may exist in our brains and not outside them.For example,the human eye can see a galaxy at a distance of 10^23 metres and it takes about 10 seconds to focus on it properly. .So if we are to see the galaxy where it is, the particles that create consciousness have to travel from our brains to the galaxy in ten seconds.This means they need to have a speed of 10^22 metres per second - at least.This is way faster than light.I do not think consciousness is so mysterious if you accept that a soul
with mass exists in each of us and that the brain creates new kinds of particles that
exist in space and time relative to a soul particle.When we are dead or unconscious we are "soul inactive" when we are dreaming or awake we are "soul active."

olde drunk Sep20-04 09:18 AM

Being conscious is not 'consciousness'. Consciousness includes being both conscious and unconscious.

To me, my consciousness is that part of my persona I use to observe a given reality. I assume that we exist on many, many levels (dimensions) of the greater reality. I use my consciousness to focus my attention on any of the given levels. It seems quite possible, even probable, that for one nano-second it is focused on what I am seeing, the next on what I communicate to myself, the next on what I communicate to others and the next funneling the information to my mind, etc ....

Consciousness is the ability focus my mind and or spirit on my experiences.

love&peace,
olde drunk

ps: awareness is being able to understand the experience, information.

Rothiemurchus Sep20-04 11:04 AM

Olde Drunk:
awareness is being able to understand the experience, information

Rothie M:
Awareness in the sense you mean is just the absorption of information
and its subsequent processing and categorising in the brain.
I am talking about nerve stimulation that causes experiences of colours,
sounds,smells etc which all have spatio-temporal existence.A computer can understand information to some extent but it does not experience colours,sounds and smells.If it did we would expect it to be physically like our brains -
organic and capable of growth.Though I do worry about plants -
there is little difference between a plant cell and an animal cell
and electric signals do exist in plant cells.Perhaps we shouldn't boil vegetables.

FaverWillets Sep20-04 01:24 PM

We have two rocks floating aimlessly in space. At last one bumps into the other. From this collision there will be a transferrance of energy between the two rocks. By this can we say that at the moment of collision each rock became "aware" of the other?

hypnagogue Sep20-04 01:30 PM

Quote:

Quote by Rothiemurchus
We are probably conscious because
our brains are producing particles of very small mass which differ from the
particles found in normal physics.For example they could be moving faster than light.

There's no experimental evidence, nor theoretical justification from physical theory, for anything of the sort. Besides which, positing the existence of 'consciousness particles' doesn't really help our case in understanding consciousness. Even if such particles did exist, we would be just as mystified as to why they are responsible for conscious experience as we are today mystified as to why certain kinds of electrical activity in the brain are responsible for conscious experience. In essence, we would still be operating under a kind of physicalism and still have no conceptual bridge between the physical phenomena and the experiential phenomena.

hypnagogue Sep20-04 01:36 PM

Quote:

Quote by FaverWillets
We have two rocks floating aimlessly in space. At last one bumps into the other. From this collision there will be a transferrance of energy between the two rocks. By this can we say that at the moment of collision each rock became "aware" of the other?

Only in an abstract sense of the word 'aware,' where we mean it to signify a transfer of information. To equate this with the kind of awareness we mean by 'conscious experience' is to completely muddy the issue with fuzzy terms. The connection you propose here, without further substantial philosophical and empirical justification, is nothing more than the consequence of carelessly using an ambiguous word.

FaverWillets Sep20-04 01:41 PM

Quote:

Quote by hypnagogue
Only in an abstract sense of the word 'aware,' where we mean it to signify a transfer of information. To equate this with the kind of awareness we mean by 'conscious experience' is to completely muddy the issue with fuzzy terms. The connection you propose here, without further substantial philosophical and empirical justification, is nothing more than the consequence of carelessly using an ambiguous word.


My point is to highlight the difficulty in reaching a logically viable definition of "consciousness."

FaverWillets Sep20-04 02:20 PM

Quote:

Quote by hypnagogue
Only in an abstract sense of the word 'aware,' where we mean it to signify a transfer of information. To equate this with the kind of awareness we mean by 'conscious experience' is to completely muddy the issue with fuzzy terms. The connection you propose here, without further substantial philosophical and empirical justification, is nothing more than the consequence of carelessly using an ambiguous word.

Additionally, the human level of consciousness is determined in precisely the same manner... stimuli impinge upon our various sensory receptors. It is from these myriad of "collisions" from solid molecules triggering olfaction and taste, photons striking our retina for sight, touching or being touched, hearing sound waves, speech from air molecules passing over our vocal chords. The problem is found in the question, what IS consciousness? Helen Keller provided the best historic example of this problem by way of her psychological/physiological evolution from a human being who could not see, hear or speak due to sensory deficiencies in her physiological compliment to one who LEARNED to interact with the outside world. Her "awareness" or "consciousness of the world around her was further expanded by other ways of circumventing her non existent senses. She was "aware" or "conscious" by way of touch, taste and smell. With these as her sensory baseline she expanded her awareness of the world about her. This is a clue worthy of consideration toward a working definition. Human consciousness has the demonstrated capacity to bring about expansion of its inherent sensory apparatus.

What IS consciousness must first be answered. I have yet to arrive at a conclusion that I find entirely satisfactory.

Rothiemurchus Sep20-04 02:35 PM

HYPNAGOGOUE:
Even if such particles did exist, we would be just as mystified as to why they are responsible for conscious experience as we are today mystified as to why certain kinds of electrical activity in the brain are responsible for conscious experience.

Rothie M:

We would not still be mystified because whatever consciousness is, it is different from the everyday physical world physics currently measures and models.
So particles with new properties and/or fields which do not share all the interactions of "normal"
matter (there could be an electric interaction or gravitational one) and interact exclusively in some way with each other (an asymmetry if you like) can be a candidate for the root cause of consciousness.Conscious experience involves the existence of space and time ( a smell is located in the nose at a certain time, a sound at a certain distance at a certain time etc) and particles exist in space and time.

hypnagogue Sep20-04 03:13 PM

Quote:

Quote by Rothiemurchus
We would not still be mystified because whatever consciousness is, it is different from the everyday physical world physics currently measures and models.
So particles with new properties and/or fields which do not share all the interactions of "normal"
matter (there could be an electric interaction or gravitational one) and interact exclusively in some way with each other (an asymmetry if you like) can be a candidate for the root cause of consciousness.

If such particles interacted exclusively with each other in some certain way, we would never be able to detect them in the process of this elusive interaction, by definition. Thus such a theory could never get off the ground empirically.

Besides which, such a theory would still not give us bridge principles connecting the objective description of the phenomena to the subjective aspects of consciousness. It would still leave us with the explanitory gap. See for example The Perennial Problem of the Reductive Explainability of Phenomenal Consciousness -- C. D. Broad on the Explanatory Gap by Ansgar Beckermann.

Rothiemurchus Sep20-04 05:56 PM

Hypnagogue:
If such particles interacted exclusively with each other in some certain way, we would never be able to detect them in the process of this elusive interaction, by definition. Thus such a theory could never get off the ground empirically.

Rothie M:
We could detect them because they still interact with other particles too through the usual forces.The forces between consciousness causing particles
would make the force between them and everyday particles different:if we have a particle, that gives rise to consciousness , attracting another such particle away from
a proton, then we would get a lower force of attraction between the proton and consciousness particle than expected by calculations done using electric and gravitational forces etc.

Subjective aspects of consciousness such as the experience of a quality called pain
can be explained:pain is different from sound.I don't mean just in the way
our brain categorizes these qualities,I mean that where pain particles exist in space with physical property X, they contrast with a sound particle with property Y in another part of space.
Both kinds of particle must exist in or on some kind of uniform medium, against which they contrast like two different colours on an artist's canvas.

hypnagogue Sep21-04 08:26 AM

Quote:

Quote by Rothiemurchus
Subjective aspects of consciousness such as the experience of a quality called pain
can be explained:pain is different from sound.I don't mean just in the way
our brain categorizes these qualities,I mean that where pain particles exist in space with physical property X, they contrast with a sound particle with property Y in another part of space.
Both kinds of particle must exist in or on some kind of uniform medium, against which they contrast like two different colours on an artist's canvas.

No, this does not address the explanatory gap. Please read the paper I linked to.


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