Physics Forums

Physics Forums (http://www.physicsforums.com/index.php)
-   General Physics (http://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=111)
-   -   How come you have more stability riding a bike than standing still with a bike? (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=463401)

Femme_physics Jan14-11 07:37 AM

How come you have more stability riding a bike than standing still with a bike?
 
My friend asked me that this morning but I couldn't think of the answer. I know there's probably some major physical law behind it, but so many to choose from! Can you guys help me clarify this issue for myself and my friend?


(when I say "riding a bike" - I mean riding on a bike. When I say "standing still with a bike", I mean sitting still on a bike)...

K^2 Jan14-11 07:40 AM

Re: How come you have more stability riding a bike than standing still with a bike?
 
Two effects. Main one is the fact that the fork is angled, so the front wheel turns in the direction you lean in. That makes you go along a curve, and that causes centrifugal force to push you straight again.

Second one is gyroscopic effect on the wheel. This one is significantly stronger on a motorcycle, but it contributes to the bicycle's stability as well.

cdotter Jan14-11 09:35 AM

Re: How come you have more stability riding a bike than standing still with a bike?
 
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...s/bicycle.html

K^2 Jan14-11 10:13 AM

Re: How come you have more stability riding a bike than standing still with a bike?
 
Keep in mind that in order to lean, you usually use a counter-turn first. Especially on a motorcycle. That's not always explained very well.

Cleonis Jan14-11 01:42 PM

Re: How come you have more stability riding a bike than standing still with a bike?
 
To be in balance the center of gravity of you and the bicycle combined must be straight above the contact patches of the wheels.

If you are standing still, and you start to fall over, then you are forced to put your foot on the ground.

When you are moving, and you feel you are in danger of falling over to the left, you steer ever so slightly to the left, thus moving the contact patches of the wheels underneath you again. (In actual bicycle riding the contact patches are only on average right underneath the center of gravity.)

As K^2 pointed out, in order to corner to the right you initiate the cornering by turning the handle bars slightly to the left - just for a fraction of a second. That moves the contact patches away from right underneath you. As the bicycle start to lean you follow that with the handlebars.

A well manufactured bicycle has a natural tendency to turn in the direction in which it is leaning. That is what makes bicycle riding feel natural and intuitive


By the way:
I think this countersteering is a striking example of subconscious learning. To corner means you have to countersteer. (Well, in the case of a very wide corner the countersteering is so subtle that it drowns in the random wriggling of cycling.)
Most people are unaware they are using countersteering. The skill has been acquired through trial and error, with no conscious perception of what is going on.

torquil Jan14-11 03:00 PM

Re: How come you have more stability riding a bike than standing still with a bike?
 
Try a bike with opposite steering, i.e. one of those clown bikes. They are difficult I can tell you!

Even worse when you have to pedal backwards to get forward...

http://www.weiwong.com/image.axd?pic...rse-bike-1.jpg

Femme_physics Jan14-11 03:42 PM

Re: How come you have more stability riding a bike than standing still with a bike?
 
Quote:

Quote by Cleonis (Post 3082937)
To be in balance the center of gravity of you and the bicycle combined must be straight above the contact patches of the wheels.

If you are standing still, and you start to fall over, then you are forced to put your foot on the ground.

When you are moving, and you feel you are in danger of falling over to the left, you steer ever so slightly to the left, thus moving the contact patches of the wheels underneath you again. (In actual bicycle riding the contact patches are only on average right underneath the center of gravity.)

As K^2 pointed out, in order to corner to the right you initiate the cornering by turning the handle bars slightly to the left - just for a fraction of a second. That moves the contact patches away from right underneath you. As the bicycle start to lean you follow that with the handlebars.

A well manufactured bicycle has a natural tendency to turn in the direction in which it is leaning. That is what makes bicycle riding feel natural and intuitive


By the way:
I think this countersteering is a striking example of subconscious learning. To corner means you have to countersteer. (Well, in the case of a very wide corner the countersteering is so subtle that it drowns in the random wriggling of cycling.)
Most people are unaware they are using countersteering. The skill has been acquired through trial and error, with no conscious perception of what is going on.

So, how come when I'm standing and I feel the danger of falling down, I can't just steer to the opposite direction and stay still? It still doesn't explain how motion is different. I supposed though from what I understand that momentum reduces weight...

K^2 Jan14-11 04:23 PM

Re: How come you have more stability riding a bike than standing still with a bike?
 
That's because when you steer, even when you are standing in place, it results in shifting the frame, and therefore, the position of CoM relative to contact patches. This effect is fairly small, however, so you have to be almost perfectly balanced, and only make small corrections. If you actually start to fall over, you cannot stop it without moving forward or using your foot.

Quote:

Try a bike with opposite steering, i.e. one of those clown bikes. They are difficult I can tell you!
Don't need a clown bike for that. Just grab handle bars on ordinary bike cross-hand and try not to hurt yourself when you fall.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:38 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014 Physics Forums