Physics Forums

Physics Forums (http://www.physicsforums.com/index.php)
-   Electrical Engineering (http://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=102)
-   -   Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work. (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=592545)

yungman Apr1-12 06:23 PM

Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
I have been working on some music electronics, I got this on the web and I don't understand how the clipping circuit with germanium diode work.

http://i43.tinypic.com/108916g.jpg

The part in question is the enhancement mode MOSFET IRF510 with the 1N34 diode. It is a clipping circuit common in distortion box used in guitar effect. Normal it is just two back to back diode for clipping the signal. I would imagine just two back to back germanium diode will work. What is the MOSFET for, I don't even see how the two MOSFET are turn on!!!

Please explain.

Thanks

Alan

Kholdstare Apr1-12 11:41 PM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
Those are diode connected mosfet. They work in saturation only.

yungman Apr2-12 12:29 AM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
I know about MOSFET rectifier, I read about the MOSFET bridge and understand how it works. Here is the link I read and it should work:

http://www.thetaeng.com/FETBridge.htm

I analyzed the circuit and I cannot see how the two MOSFET even get turn on. I understand the body diode play a role in the ordinary rectifier to turn on the FET, but I don't see how this circuit work.

The reason I put this here because it is published and is used, it must be doing something and I just don't get it.

earlofwessex Apr2-12 06:33 PM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
if the diodes were the other way round, the fets would add to the clipping threshold, and probably soften the edges up a bit.

http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/...ion/index.html

that page has some info, it says
Quote:

Above you can see special clipping diodes. The first one has one diode on the other side and two on the other. This cuts down the positive or negative peaks (depending on how you connected the diodes) more than the other side. The second one is from Jack A. Orman's and Aaron Nelson's Shaka Braddah III design. It uses a diode and a MOSFET to create clipping. It gives a nice, bluesy, soft clipping. The original diodes were 1N34's and the MOSFETs were IRF520's
edit: ha ha, on closer look, i think thats all the page says.

yungman Apr2-12 06:47 PM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
Quote:

Quote by earlofwessex (Post 3847032)
if the diodes were the other way round, the fets would add to the clipping threshold, and probably soften the edges up a bit.

http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/...ion/index.html

that page has some info, it says

edit: ha ha, on closer look, i think thats all the page says.

Thanks for the reply, that's the Jack A. Orman's and Aaron Nelson's Shaka Braddah III design. My question is how does it work. My confusion is how does the circuit conduct. If you look at the link you provided, the left hand side is the enhancement NMOS with the source connects to the anode of the 1N34.

Let see if top side is positive, the gate of the NMOS is tied to the Drain and when positive, the NMOS is trying to turn on. BUT the diode is connected backward and is OFF. There will be no conduction.

Now if the bottom is positive and top is negative, the diode want to turn on. BUT the NMOS is up side down where the Source is on the positive end and the Gate and Drain is connected to the negative side. Even if you say the S and D is interchangeable, the gate is tide to the D(which is S if you switch S to D) and it is not going to turn on as it is an enhancement mode FET.

This is my confusion. It is obvious the circuit works, but how?

Jony130 Apr3-12 12:01 PM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
It seems that you completely forgot about build-in in every MOSFET parasitic diode (body diode). This diode act just like a Zener diode. The Zener action occurs when Vds > Vds_max. And act like a "normal" diode when Vsd > 0.6V.

yungman Apr3-12 01:17 PM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
Quote:

Quote by Jony130 (Post 3848160)
It seems that you completely forgot about build-in in every MOSFET parasitic diode (body diode). This diode act just like a Zener diode. The Zener action occurs when Vds > Vds_max. And act like a "normal" diode when Vsd > 0.6V.

I did not forget the body diode, in fact the body diode is the very thing that make MOSFET as rectifier possible. In fact the body diode is shown in the drawing I posted. It does not make any sense to use the MOSFET just to use the body diode and the MOSFET never get turn on. There got to be a better reason. I designed a lot of MOSFET circuits, just cannot make sense out of this.

It is not used as Zener as the voltage is much higher, this is a clamping circuit for distortion that use 9V battery, never even touch the zener break down voltage.

Jony130 Apr3-12 02:57 PM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Well, my scope don't see any difference

http://www.physicsforums.com/attachm...1&d=1333482952

It's looks like another audiophile myth.

earlofwessex Apr3-12 05:15 PM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
I see a difference in your scope, those peaks are clipped asymetrically.

it should be noted that DIY guitar effects pedals are usually built by random trial and error, by people who haven't studied electronic design.

Quote:

FETs as diodes

You can connect the Gate and Source to make a FET diode. Connect a FET Gate+Source to ground and the Drain to signal. Then connect another FET Drain to ground and Gate+Source to Signal. Try these where you might have your standard silicon diode clippers.

Buzzwords: "More touch sensitivity", "FET sound", "Tube crunch"
http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/in...le=Simple_mods

yungman Apr4-12 03:39 AM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
Yeh, I really think it's those people that really don't know electronics doing something really funny. I did the simulation with LTSpice and see the same thing as your scope trace. The MOSFET is nothing more than a body diode.

yungman Apr4-12 03:41 AM

Re: Please explain how the MOSFET and the diode work.
 
Quote:

Quote by earlofwessex (Post 3848593)
I see a difference in your scope, those peaks are clipped asymetrically.

it should be noted that DIY guitar effects pedals are usually built by random trial and error, by people who haven't studied electronic design.


http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/in...le=Simple_mods

I think it's due to the Vbe difference. I am busy working on the diode clipping distortion circuit and I can change the duty cycle by introducing offset.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:51 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014 Physics Forums