P-T Graph of Water: Understanding Density & Expansion

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Outrageous
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Graph Water
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phase transition of water and its density characteristics compared to other substances, particularly focusing on the P-T graph of water. Participants explore the implications of pressure on the freezing and melting processes of water and carbon dioxide, examining the relationship between density and phase changes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the P-T graph for water indicates that the liquid phase is denser than the solid phase, which is contrary to the behavior of most substances.
  • One participant explains that the unique crystal structure of ice leads to a lower density in the solid phase compared to the liquid phase, allowing ice to float.
  • A question is raised about the implications of higher pressure on the formation of denser phases, particularly in relation to carbon dioxide's freezing curve.
  • Another participant introduces Le Chatelier's principle to explain how increasing pressure can lead to melting ice, as the system seeks to reduce pressure by transitioning to a denser state.
  • There is a discussion about the conditions under which solid CO2 can form, with some arguing that higher pressure makes it easier to create solid CO2, while others express confusion about the relationship between pressure and freezing points.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effects of pressure on phase transitions, particularly between water and carbon dioxide. There is no consensus on the implications of pressure on the freezing points and the density of the phases involved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the behavior of substances under pressure and the definitions of density in different phases, which remain unresolved. The relationship between pressure, temperature, and phase changes is complex and not fully agreed upon by participants.

Physics news on Phys.org
It explains it in the link a bit further down.

Normally the solid/liquid phase line slopes positively to the right (as in the diagram for carbon dioxide above). However for other substances, notably water, the line slopes to the left as the diagram for water shows. This indicates that the liquid phase is more dense than the solid phase. This phenomenon is caused by the crystal structure of the solid phase. In the solid forms of water and some other substances, the molecules crystalize in a lattice with greater average space between molecules, thus resulting in a solid with a lower density than the liquid. Because of this phenomenon, one is able to melt ice simply by applying pressure and not by adding heat.
 
So can I say at higher pressure what is more likely to form will be denser?
One thing I don't understand is let's say carbon dioxide, when we apply higher pressure, the freezing curve of CO2 slopes positively to the right , that means higher the pressure ,higher the freezing point, more difficult to form solid. Is this correct?
But I always think that we need high pressure so that we can easily change from gas to liquid then to solid.
 
Not exactly. Try to think of it in terms of Le Chatelier's principle. Imagine I take a block of ice just bellow melting point. Then I compress it. In other words, I raise pressure. Le Chatelier's principle tells me that system will try to resist the change. In other words, it will try to do something to reduce pressure. For example, it can go into a denser state if one is available. You can also see what happens based on PV diagram. If I increase pressure, temperature just bellow freezing becomes just above freezing. Ice melts. Combined with above it tells me that substance found a denser state, which happens to be liquid.

Higher freezing point means solid will form at higher temperature. It will be easier to make solid CO2 at higher pressure. What's more important is that if you start with a block of frozen CO2 at just bellow the freezing point and compress it, increasing pressure, you stay bellow freezing point. On the other hand, if you start with liquid CO2 just above freezing point, compressing it will put you bellow freezing point, meaning that in this case the solid is denser.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
9K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
4K
  • · Replies 66 ·
3
Replies
66
Views
6K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
9K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
5K