What is burning and how occured heat and light

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phenomenon of burning, exploring its atomic and molecular processes, the nature of heat and light produced during combustion, and the characteristics of flames. Participants delve into the chemical reactions involved, the transfer of heat, and the role of plasma in flames.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that burning is a chemical reaction involving the combination of materials with oxygen, resulting in new compounds and the emission of infrared and visible radiation.
  • Others argue that heat is related to the vibration of atoms and that increased atomic vibration is perceived as heat when it interacts with our skin.
  • A participant explains that heat is energy transferred through thermal interaction, which raises the temperature of objects by increasing their internal energy through molecular and atomic movements.
  • Some participants note that combustion is a form of fast oxidation and highlight the presence of flames, which they describe as more than just hot gases, suggesting they may exhibit plasma characteristics due to atomic transitions.
  • However, there is contention regarding whether flames can be classified as plasma, with some participants referencing external sources to argue that typical flames do not reach the temperatures necessary to create plasma.
  • A later reply acknowledges the complexity of plasma behavior in flames, suggesting that even low-temperature flames may contain ions and that light emission can occur from electronic transitions in atoms and molecules, not solely from plasma.
  • Another participant discusses how electronic transitions can lead to light emission, contributing to the color of flames during combustion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of flames and whether they can be classified as plasma. While there is some agreement on the chemical processes involved in burning, the discussion remains unresolved regarding the specifics of flame characteristics and the role of plasma.

Contextual Notes

Some claims about the temperature thresholds for plasma formation and the mechanisms of light emission in flames are not fully resolved, and there are references to external sources that may not be universally accepted within the discussion.

koray692
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how occur burning namely when something burn... what is the event in atomic size. atom can not burn what is burning and how occurred heat and light ...is heat vibration of the atoms ??
 
Science news on Phys.org
Here's an explanation by Richard Feynman

 
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koray692 said:
how occur burning namely when something burn... what is the event in atomic size. atom can not burn what is burning and how occurred heat and light ...is heat vibration of the atoms ??
Burning is a chemical reaction that occurs between the material involved and the oxygen from the atmosphere. The oxygen molecules combine with the molecules of the material, and form new compounts (such as CO2) as well as giving off infrared and visible radiation. During the reaction, chemical bonds are broken and new bonds formed.
 
thanks for your answers...I understand how occur burning...and so how we feel the heat ...is heat atoms of vibration and when this vibration increase and hit us so we feel that like its heat.
 
koray692 said:
thanks for your answers...I understand how occur burning...and so how we feel the heat ...is heat atoms of vibration and when this vibration increase and hit us so we feel that like its heat.

Heat, as a general definition, is energy transferred from one body to another by thermal interaction. Transferring heat to something increases one objects temperature, and temperature is a measure of the internal energy of an object. This internal energy takes the form of molecular and atomic vibrations, rotations, oscillations, etc.

When you put your hand over a flame you have a couple of things happening. First, the air surrounding the flame is being drawn in, thanks to convection, and heated up from the combustion process itself. This warmer air rises, which fuels the convection process that draws more air in. As the warm air rises it comes into contact with your hand and through collisions between the air molecules and your hand's molecules heat is transferred to your hand, warming it up.

Second, the hot air and fuel itself puts out thermal radiation. Thermal radiation is EM radiation that is emitted when any object is at a temperature above 0 kelvin, aka absolute zero. The hotter an object is, the more energy it puts out as radiation and the higher frequency that radiation is. A flame typically puts out a lot of radiation in the infrared range of the spectrum, so when you put your hand over the flame you are also absorbing infrared radiation from the flame in addition to feeling the warm air. This thermal radiation is the reason you feel warm when you sit close to a fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiant_heating
 
Yes indeed, combustion is fast oxidation. But there is an important detail: usually there is flame. Flame is more than just a hot gas with quickly moving particles, it is plasma, whose visible and IR emission is due to atomic transitions.
 
Alkim said:
Yes indeed, combustion is fast oxidation. But there is an important detail: usually there is flame. Flame is more than just a hot gas with quickly moving particles, it is plasma, whose visible and IR emission is due to atomic transitions.

I don't think that's true.
See this link: http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/FAQs7.html#q97

Excerpt:

97. Is fire a plasma?

The fire given off when burning for example, paper, wood, gasoline--is that another of the manifestations of a plasma? If it isn't plasma that makes the fire shine--what is it?

Reply

You asked a good question, but the answer is--no, fire is not hot enough to create a plasma.
 
Dear Drakkith,

Thanks for helping me to analyze in more depth the subject. I might have exaggerated the importance of plasma especially in common low-temperature flames, whose light I agree should be mainly due to incandescent aerosol particles formed by incomplete combustion. However, there is no particular threshold for a gas to exhibit plasma behaviour and undoubtedly even a candle flame (T around 1000ºC) contains a small fraction of ions, and a properly conducted experiment will demonstrate it (see e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7_8Gc_Llr8&feature=youtu.be&hd=1 ; I have seen somewhere also a low-voltage variant, so you can not say that ionization is due to the high field). Anyway, part of the light especially in high temperature flame is due to electronic transitions, occurring not necessarily only in ions, but also in atoms and molecules.
 
Alkim said:
Anyway, part of the light especially in high temperature flame is due to electronic transitions, occurring not necessarily only in ions, but also in atoms and molecules.

Sure, as electronic transitions don't need to occur only from a plasma. If you excite the electron to an energy level, and it stays bound to the atom, it will drop back down if it can and emit light. I believe that is the entire reason some things burn certain colors.
 
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Modern classic:
 
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