Physics Forums

Physics Forums (http://www.physicsforums.com/index.php)
-   Linear & Abstract Algebra (http://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=75)
-   -   Matrix Multiplication and Commuting (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=6676)

Little Devil Oct3-03 01:11 PM

Matrix Multiplication and Commuting
 
Why might two matrices commute? I.e Why would AB=BA because in general, matrices usually do not commute. What are the properties of matrices that do commute?
Ben

rick1138 Oct4-03 03:18 PM

Diagonal matrices commute.

rick1138 Oct4-03 09:54 PM

I forgot to mention there is a geometrical way of looking at this - suppose the diagonal is filled with scalars, then each aii stretches any object that the matrix acts on in the i direction. For example, suppose a11 is 5, then any object acted on by the matrix will be streched by a factor of 5 in the x direction, if you are using an x,y,z coordinate system. In a diagonal matrix the eigenvalues are precisely the entries on the diagonal.

rick1138 Oct4-03 09:57 PM

I completely left out the geometric intuition I sought to express - stretching in the x direction, then the y, is the same as stretching in the y direction, then the x - the two operations commute, and so do any matrices associated with the operations.

HallsofIvy Oct6-03 01:58 PM

More generally: two matrices, A and B, commute if and only if they are "simultaneously diagonalizable": that is if there exist some invertible matrix M such that MAM-1= D1 and MBM-1= D2 where D1 and D2 are diagonal matrices (more generally, Jordan Normal Form if A and B are not diagonalizable).

It follows then that A= M-1D1M and B= M-1D2M.
Then AB= M-1D1MM-1D2M= M-1D1D2M
= M-1D2D1M (since all diagonal matrices commute)
= M-1D2MM-1D2M
= BA.

rick1138 Oct6-03 10:58 PM

That is the proof I couldn't remember.

Hurkyl Oct7-03 02:32 PM

How does the proof in the other direction go? I fiddled around with it a bit and wasn't getting very far.

rick1138 Oct7-03 06:59 PM

It wasn't a proof, just geometric intuition, given by the fact that it doesn't matter which order something is stretched in - the final result will be the same, and the fact that diagonal matrices stretch any object they act on, by the degree given by the ith eigenvalue, in the ith direction. There is an excellent geometric discussion of how eigenvalues and eigenvectors act on an object available here:
http://hverrill.net/courses/linalg/linalg8.html
I don't have anything better to add to it.

Hurkyl Oct7-03 07:30 PM

Ok... I can prove that if A has not defective then A and B commute iff they are simultaneously diagonalizable. Anyone know how to do it when both are defective?


Here's a sketch of what I have so far:

Assume A is not defective and finite dimensional. Then choose a basis that diagonalizes A.

The i,k-th entry in AB is AiiBik
The i,k-th entry in BA is BikAkk

So AB = BA iff, for all (i, k), Bik = 0 or Aii=Akk.


If Aii = Ajj, then A is the identity over the subspace spanned by the i-th and j-th basis vectors, so we can replace these two vectors with basis vectors that diagonalize B over that subspace.

By repeating this process, we can produce a basis that simultaneously diagonalizes both A and B.


I don't know what to do if A is defective or infinite dimensional. (though I admit not having taken a crack at modifying the above proof to use transfinite induction to tackle the infinite dimensional case) [:(]

rick1138 Oct7-03 08:08 PM

That proof should work for infinite dimensional cases as is because it already uses induction in the repetition of converting the basis vectors to basis vectors that span subspaces of B, two by two, as long as A is not defective. Proof if both A and B are defective is not easy. Good luck.

holezch Feb25-10 06:05 PM

Re: Matrix Multiplication and Commuting
 
Quote:

Quote by rick1138 (Post 77251)
Diagonal matrices commute.


this is not IFF is it?

A * B can B* A without A being diagonal

Tola Apr12-12 10:19 PM

Re: Matrix Multiplication and Commuting
 
Can you give me and example to find matrices commute with matrices A that we know?

ajkoer Apr16-12 11:47 PM

Re: Matrix Multiplication and Commuting
 
Quote:

Quote by Tola (Post 3862889)
Can you give me and example to find matrices commute with matrices A that we know?

Clearly an example is all matrices for which B = kA, where k is a scalar. Then, the eigenvalues differ by a constant factor and the matrix M diagonalizes both A and B as required.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:11 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014 Physics Forums