Electron band structure in a nucleus

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of electron band structure in the context of atomic nuclei, exploring whether a nucleus can be alternatively conceptualized as containing electrons alongside protons and neutrons. The scope includes theoretical considerations and historical models related to nuclear structure.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Historical
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose an alternative view of the nucleus as containing N + Z protons and N electrons, suggesting these electrons could occupy orbitals within the nucleus or follow beta decay.
  • Others argue against this alternative view, citing issues such as non-zero lepton number implications, the inappropriate application of "band structure" terminology, and historical problems with energy conservation in beta decay.
  • A later reply mentions that this alternative model was an early conception of the nucleus but was ultimately deemed problematic due to several factors, including confinement of electrons and the overall spin of nuclei.
  • Participants reference historical developments, such as the introduction of the neutrino and the discovery of the neutron, which resolved earlier issues with the understanding of nuclear structure.
  • There is mention of extensive experimental data supporting the current model of nuclei consisting of protons and neutrons, which has been consistently validated through nuclear and particle physics research.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the alternative model of the nucleus, with some supporting the traditional view of protons and neutrons and others questioning the validity of the proposed electron inclusion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include unresolved assumptions about electron confinement within the nucleus and the applicability of band structure terminology to single-atom orbitals. The discussion does not resolve the validity of the alternative model proposed.

Loren Booda
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Consider a nucleus with N neutrons and Z protons. Can one justify it alternatively as a nucleus with N + Z protons and N electrons, the latter occupying orbitals either confined to the nucleus or following beta decay according to their electronic potential?
 
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The standard model of atoms is that they consist of a nucleus and electrons. Experiments all bear out this model. For example, the radius of the nucleus is very much smaller than the radius of an atom.
 
Loren Booda said:
Consider a nucleus with N neutrons and Z protons. Can one justify it alternatively as a nucleus with N + Z protons and N electrons, the latter occupying orbitals either confined to the nucleus or following beta decay according to their electronic potential?
No, this alternative view can not be justified. There are several problems with this. For instance, you have proposed a non-zero lepton number for the nucleus.

Besides, the term "band structure" is not used in the context of single-atom orbitals; but to describe the spectrum formed by the overlap of a macroscopic number of orbitals, arranged periodically.
 
Last edited:
Loren Booda said:
Can one justify it alternatively as a nucleus with N + Z protons and N electrons,

This was in fact an early model of the nucleus, but it had serious problems with (a) the apparent lack of energy conservation in beta decay, (b) its inability to account for the overall spin of certain nuclei, and (c) the problem of how to confine electrons within a volume the size of the nucleus despite the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

These problems were resolved c. 1930 by (a) Pauli's "invention" of the neutrino, (b) the discovery of the neutron, and (c) Fermi's theory of beta decay as the conversion of a neutron into a proton, with the emission of a newly-created electron and (anti)neutrino.

And of course nowadays we have huge mountains of data from nuclear and particle physics experiments, all analyzed under the assumption that nuclei contain protons and neutrons, and producing consistent results.
 

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