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Black Women-White Men

by Ivan Seeking
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Monique
#55
Sep15-08, 12:47 PM
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Quote Quote by LydiaAC View Post
Hello Monique:
Actually, I always had had the opposite question "Why people marry inside their own race?"
Nevertheless, I love to read what people is writing in this thread. I do not agree with everything, but It does not seem stupid nor narrow minded to me. It does not even seems malicious. If any, I would like to read more replies from black people.
By the way, I am Mexican and we share most of the problems of blacks (hopelessness and so), but maybe this is a topic for other thread.
Lydia
That must be a cultural difference, because for me it is a non-issue what the color of someone's skin is. I do see communities where people only associate with their own ethnical class and yes I think that is being narrow-minded, not too long ago I went to a festive occasion where 99% were of the same ethnic class, with me being the exception. As for the thread: apparently there still is a taboo for women of African descend to associate with men of European descend and they are starting to break through it, good for them.
vociferous
#56
Sep15-08, 01:12 PM
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Quote Quote by baywax View Post
After seeing what white folks are capable of, I don't trust any of the so and sos.

Let's see. Let's say your great great great great grandfather was abducted from San Diego and taken to Tanzania to be sold at auction into slavery. Then generations of your family developed there under great oppression, continually lambasted with insults and distrust for 200 years. How would your self esteem and your self confidence level look at this end of the ordeal? You would probably, for the most part, believe what anyone thought about you, and act accordingly, unless you were taught by a strong person to rise above all of that hype.
Jews were treated even worse for two thousand years by European Caucasians, culminating in an attempt to exterminate every European Jew, yet somehow most people of Jewish ancestry have managed to find peace with their former tormentors and become, as a group, productive members of the societies that they live in.

Even when racism against blacks was widespread, they managed to have children which went on to greater economic prosperity and educational achievement than their parents. I think you have to look long and hard at the values of the black community which has gone from emphasizing education (like during the Reconstruction period) and banding together as a community for positive change (like during the civil rights movement) to something where values such as avarice and criminality are celebrated.

I think this change of black culture explains why African American men are the only group that is declining in terms of education and economic prosperity while every other group, even groups that face significantly greater barriers to success (like poor, non-English speaking, uneducated, and often illegal immigrants) have continued to improve generationally like most any other immigrant groups. Black immigrants to the United States, many of whom are coming from states in which their ancestors were held in slavery are also able to improve generationally like any other group in the United States.

So, in conclusion, I have to believe that if black women want to date black men of their own social standing, it is going to become increasingly more difficult given the socio-economic trends, and only a dramatic change of values within the black community in the US are going to change that.
baywax
#57
Sep15-08, 01:56 PM
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Quote Quote by vociferous View Post
Jews were treated even worse for two thousand years by European Caucasians, culminating in an attempt to exterminate every European Jew, yet somehow most people of Jewish ancestry have managed to find peace with their former tormentors and become, as a group, productive members of the societies that they live in.
How productive is building a wall between you and your neighbour? I think the tensions between neighbours down there could have been avoided with some real sharing and some total disclosure of all intentions. I don't blame anyone that's put themselves in situations where they are made to be slaves (Egypt) or unwanted (throughout Europe) or subjected to genocidal maniacs (Nazis). But, the Hebrew intelligence is such that it has risen above retribution and revenge toward prosperity and goodwill (ignoring the back and forth warring with neighbours). Thanks for that.

Even when racism against blacks was widespread, they managed to have children which went on to greater economic prosperity and educational achievement than their parents. I think you have to look long and hard at the values of the black community which has gone from emphasizing education (like during the Reconstruction period) and banding together as a community for positive change (like during the civil rights movement) to something where values such as avarice and criminality are celebrated.
"The values of the black community"... you mean the African American community? I would imagine their values are not far from your own. They need food, shelter and mobility to get to a good job that can pay for the former. Beyond that, they need the safety of the street and the park for their children to run around and have fun.

What seems to be happening is that an extremely small portion of the African American culture is jumping on the 'gangsta" wagon and pumping out dubious noises that are accepted by an entire generation of youth who need to annoy their parents with something that doesn't sound like "Classic Rock". This has facilitated and represented a sub-culture of "gangstas" which has become a kind of icon of the youth (Caucasian and African and Indian and so on). This turn of events has led to more kids, from every sub-species of humans, trying on the "bling" of "gangstahood". Its certainly not confined to the African American community.

I think this change of black culture explains why African American men are the only group that is declining in terms of education and economic prosperity while every other group, even groups that face significantly greater barriers to success (like poor, non-English speaking, uneducated, and often illegal immigrants) have continued to improve generationally like most any other immigrant groups. Black immigrants to the United States, many of whom are coming from states in which their ancestors were held in slavery are also able to improve generationally like any other group in the United States.

So, in conclusion, I have to believe that if black women want to date black men of their own social standing, it is going to become increasingly more difficult given the socio-economic trends, and only a dramatic change of values within the black community in the US are going to change that.
And that change will come with positive reinforcement, not a drug war. Leading by example, not brow beating and brutality. Thanks for this insight.
baywax
#58
Sep15-08, 11:36 PM
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Not that I know a thing about it. And please forgive me for any faux pas or offences. I've been trying to "liberate" the First Nations of Canada for as long as I've been alive. The only thing that's worked is to show them their long, distinguished past and give it back to them.

People who have been repressed by guns, booze and poor treatment and even slavery only look like they're doing well now because they are finally getting back what they had all along, before it was taken away by a few porky sloths in waistcoats.
TheStatutoryApe
#59
Sep16-08, 06:06 AM
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It seems consistent with what I have seen that women tend to date with in their own 'race/culture' more often than not. It also seems consistent with a theory I have that women tend to create a model in their mind of what they think their perfect mate would be like at a young age. Since most people think more visually and tend to judge people and prospective mates most heavily on looks I can easily see where women would tend to create these models with the 'appropriate' skin colour.

In the case of black women I am not sure I can agree with you Ivan, or the article, that these prison statistics play that large a role in this apparent phenomenon of black women choosing mates outside of their own 'race'. Certainly they do to some degree. A person who goes to jail is that much less likely to go to college or be capable of finding a decent job. They are also that much more likely to wind up back in prison, doing drugs, becoming alcoholics, ect. These are all significant factors in choosing a potential mate and would seem to narrow the choices greatly.

We're talking more about 'successful' black women though. More specificly women who have gone to college and/or found employment in the white collar world. Even if we were to assume that the black men in college and the white collar work place were proportionally represented (which they are not, I know) that would still mean there are more men of other 'races/cultures' than there are black men. And if men are far less likely to have a racial preference for their mates then that narrows the pool of prospective mates even further for a black woman who wants a black man. So it just stands to reason that as more black women become more academicly successful and find better jobs we will see more of them choosing mates outside of their race. Women who are educated, financially successful, and older (if they have waited until this point to look for a serious relationship) are likely to care less about their mates physical appearance aswell.

Another phenomena mentioned in the article is thenumber of black men who seem to prefer to date outside of their race. I have heard about this alot and even met black men who do not like to date black women. They even warn white men away from black women because apparently black women have a tendancy to be much more domineering than white women. Whether or not this is true or can even be statisticly quantified I have no idea but it seems to be the perception from my experience. Its not hard to see the possibility of this. Single black mothers are fairly common and while they may often wind up with rebellious and troubled sons, for lack of a father figure, they will be more likely to produce strong independent daughters. Since the average man seems to have difficulty dealing with strong independent women this could be a big reason why many black men choose specificly to date outside of their race.

This last bit is probably not very significant in the over all picture but I am just trying to illustrate the many variables there seem to be in this issue. I don't think that black men are hurting for mates any more than black women, and apparently less so.
vociferous
#60
Sep16-08, 10:52 AM
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Quote Quote by TheStatutoryApe View Post
Another phenomena mentioned in the article is thenumber of black men who seem to prefer to date outside of their race. I have heard about this alot and even met black men who do not like to date black women.
I made reference to I study I read about earlier which showed that while black women were, by far, the group most strongly preferential of dating within their own race, black men had no racial/ethnic preference and tended to judge based on looks as the strongest factor (which was also true in the study of men of all races/ethnicities).

So, if you are an educated black woman, and you are trying to find a black man of similar socio-economic achievement as yourself, it will be difficult because.

1) The ratio of black women to black men who are well-educated or have high earning power is very heavily disproportionate.

2) Black men are as likely to choose someone of another race as they are to choose a black woman.
gmax137
#61
Sep17-08, 11:55 AM
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Sorry to interrupt, but I can't help going off-topic (from Post #35)
Quote Quote by LydiaAC View Post
That is the nerd's dilemma.
I just love that, "the nerd's dilemma..."

Thanks for that one, Lydia
baywax
#62
Sep17-08, 12:50 PM
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Actually I did want to say, who's business is it whether an African American women dates the blue man group or otherwise? And to what end will any of this information help anyone other than the marketing tycoons on Madison Avenue?
vociferous
#63
Sep17-08, 03:31 PM
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Quote Quote by baywax View Post
Actually I did want to say, who's business is it whether an African American women dates the blue man group or otherwise? And to what end will any of this information help anyone other than the marketing tycoons on Madison Avenue?
I believe that knowledge, whether it is about the natural, artificial, or social world, is valuable in and unto itself. I find no reason why someone needs to justify the acquisition of knowledge or the discussion of knowledge.
baywax
#64
Sep17-08, 04:22 PM
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Quote Quote by vociferous View Post
I believe that knowledge, whether it is about the natural, artificial, or social world, is valuable in and unto itself. I find no reason why someone needs to justify the acquisition of knowledge or the discussion of knowledge.
Well when it comes to eavesdropping and meddling in other people's affairs as it appears that this sort of study encourages, I'd say you have, or used to have, some sort of law against it.
vociferous
#65
Sep17-08, 04:28 PM
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Are you seriously suggesting that it is, or should be illegal to conduct social science research?
baywax
#66
Sep17-08, 04:49 PM
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Quote Quote by vociferous View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that it is, or should be illegal to conduct social science research?
I'm suggesting that there needs to be consent forms signed before any research is conducted. If there are none signed, then the action would be illegal and unethical. This would ensure no invasion of privacy was committed. Even the tax dept. makes sure you understand what you're committing to when you fill out a form. Why should the social sciences have any more access to or liberty with people's private information? There might also be a clause that ensures the mental and physical health of the interviewee is such that they understand what they are signing etc...

In the long run, if this study is about the health (mental/physical/economic/societal) of the African American male, why not measure it directly instead of involving their counterparts, the women? Why introduce so many variables to this measurement of the health of the average African American male?
vociferous
#67
Sep17-08, 06:44 PM
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Quote Quote by baywax View Post
I'm suggesting that there needs to be consent forms signed before any research is conducted. If there are none signed, then the action would be illegal and unethical. This would ensure no invasion of privacy was committed. Even the tax dept. makes sure you understand what you're committing to when you fill out a form. Why should the social sciences have any more access to or liberty with people's private information? There might also be a clause that ensures the mental and physical health of the interviewee is such that they understand what they are signing etc...

In the long run, if this study is about the health (mental/physical/economic/societal) of the African American male, why not measure it directly instead of involving their counterparts, the women? Why introduce so many variables to this measurement of the health of the average African American male?
A lot of research is conducted using demographic data, so no consent form is needed. If there is a specific study conducted, as opposed to gathering already available statistical data, then the people who participate are usually given consent forms to sign. One of the advantages of research in the social sciences (as opposed to the natural sciences) is that you can gather a lot of your data just by acquiring it from public or private records, as opposed to having to actually spend the time and money gathering it yourself.
baywax
#68
Sep17-08, 09:59 PM
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Quote Quote by vociferous View Post
A lot of research is conducted using demographic data, so no consent form is needed. If there is a specific study conducted, as opposed to gathering already available statistical data, then the people who participate are usually given consent forms to sign. One of the advantages of research in the social sciences (as opposed to the natural sciences) is that you can gather a lot of your data just by acquiring it from public or private records, as opposed to having to actually spend the time and money gathering it yourself.
As an archaeologist working with anthropologists I found (in the past) that we used highly intrusive behaviour in order to collect data for the "public record". Graves were plundered and incredible sacred and ancestral sites were annexed for and by the government. The people to whom these sites belonged were briefed, (in the sense of the word) "briefly", but never asked permission in many cases. How the public record is compiled with regard to "whom marries whom and why" is another can of worms. I'm glad to hear that consent is or is thought to be a central issue to the collection of any personal data in your country.

I am still puzzled by the need to gauge the health of African American males by who they marry. As it has been pointed out, these guys really go for pretty much any woman, like most males (with exceptions). I suppose that, ideally, marrying into your own sub-species is a gesture and ritual of loyalty and acknowledgment to your ancestors. For myself, I live in an extremely multi-cultural society, there's a city 40 minutes from here that is 80 percent inhabited by Canadian Chinese from Hong Kong and Mainland China. On the way there you go through India town where there are 100s of thousands of people who have immigrated from India. Little Italy is on route to all of this and there are Polish, Ukrainian and Croation community centres all along the way. One area is Israeli to the max. There is also a huge contingent of Iranian immigrants in many portions of the city proper.

And at the same time, you see these people mingling like they're all the same species... human. And some venture to marry one another. Somehow, though, our social sciences division has neglected to use the marriage stats to gauge the health of any one sub-species.
TheStatutoryApe
#69
Sep17-08, 11:23 PM
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Quote Quote by baywax View Post
I am still puzzled by the need to gauge the health of African American males by who they marry. As it has been pointed out, these guys really go for pretty much any woman, like most males (with exceptions). I suppose that, ideally, marrying into your own sub-species is a gesture and ritual of loyalty and acknowledgment to your ancestors.
No one is talking about the health of any one as far as I know. Just their dating practices and more specifically those of black women. Some are wondering what effect that may have on the population of black males in regards to finding mates.
There are many people of different 'races' who feel that their cultures are dying out due to mixed marriage. Some see it as an erosion of their cultural community. And as pointed out in the article of the OP some even think that black males date white women as a symbol of status and that they are selling out their culture. So there may be a social/cultural significance in all of this regardless of whether or not its the sort of issue that effects you personally. Someone somewhere certainly cares about the cost of tea in china.

Quote Quote by baywax
For myself, I live in an extremely multi-cultural society, there's a city 40 minutes from here that is 80 percent inhabited by Canadian Chinese from Hong Kong and Mainland China. On the way there you go through India town where there are 100s of thousands of people who have immigrated from India. Little Italy is on route to all of this and there are Polish, Ukrainian and Croation community centres all along the way. One area is Israeli to the max. There is also a huge contingent of Iranian immigrants in many portions of the city proper.
Its much like this where I live too. Driving home down the main street next to my neighbourhood I see signs in Arabic, Thai, Chinese, and Spanish. Maybe even others that look similar and I just can't distinguish.
So we can see by all of this that people tend to clump together in small (and sometimes large) cultural communities. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people live in areas where there are several people of their same culture or 'race'. Obviously cultural cohesiveness is important to alot of people so doesn't it make sense for social scientists to study the phenomenon of, and trends in, intercultural dating and marriage?
baywax
#70
Sep18-08, 11:42 AM
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Quote Quote by TheStatutoryApe View Post
No one is talking about the health of any one as far as I know. Just their dating practices and more specifically those of black women. Some are wondering what effect that may have on the population of black males in regards to finding mates.

There are many people of different 'races' who feel that their cultures are dying out due to mixed marriage. Some see it as an erosion of their cultural community. And as pointed out in the article of the OP some even think that black males date white women as a symbol of status and that they are selling out their culture. So there may be a social/cultural significance in all of this regardless of whether or not its the sort of issue that effects you personally. Someone somewhere certainly cares about the cost of tea in china.


Its much like this where I live too. Driving home down the main street next to my neighbourhood I see signs in Arabic, Thai, Chinese, and Spanish. Maybe even others that look similar and I just can't distinguish.
So we can see by all of this that people tend to clump together in small (and sometimes large) cultural communities. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people live in areas where there are several people of their same culture or 'race'. Obviously cultural cohesiveness is important to alot of people so doesn't it make sense for social scientists to study the phenomenon of, and trends in, intercultural dating and marriage?
That's cool. I wonder, though, if it isn't my own xenophobia that flares up when I see the socio/economically well-to-do "race" of whites inspecting and documenting the sexual/cultural/marital preferences of "minority races" (which are only a minority in a relative sense). Wouldn't it be even more efficient to have the people of a "race" study themselves? This would produce data no one could ever have imagined existed.

Is it a distrust of the "other" people that disallows the acceptance of their own studies of their own cultures? Where is the enabling and support for this kind of initiative amongst the "minorities"? There are private social science initiatives in some groups. Marketing is, after all, a social science!
TheStatutoryApe
#71
Sep18-08, 11:53 AM
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Quote Quote by baywax View Post
That's cool. I wonder, though, if it isn't my own xenophobia that flares up when I see the socio/economically well-to-do "race" of whites inspecting and documenting the sexual/cultural/marital preferences of "minority races" (which are only a minority in a relative sense). Wouldn't it be even more efficient to have the people of a "race" study themselves? This would produce data no one could ever have imagined existed.

Is it a distrust of the "other" people that disallows the acceptance of their own studies of their own cultures? Where is the enabling and support for this kind of initiative amongst the "minorities"? There are private social science initiatives in some groups. Marketing is, after all, a social science!
Lol... although some or even most of us discussing this are white what makes you think that the people studying this are white? Don't you think the people most interested, and most aware of there even being such a phenomenon in the first place, would be black?
Perhaps its this male dominated anglo society that has programmed you to not think there are possibly black female sociologists out there making such inquiries?
baywax
#72
Sep18-08, 01:03 PM
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Quote Quote by TheStatutoryApe View Post
Lol... although some or even most of us discussing this are white what makes you think that the people studying this are white? Don't you think the people most interested, and most aware of there even being such a phenomenon in the first place, would be black?
Perhaps its this male dominated anglo society that has programmed you to not think there are possibly black female sociologists out there making such inquiries?
I will believe that Afro-Americans are accepted as equals when America has an African-American president. Oh, I guess that might happen! In Canada we tend to swing between French Canadian and Anglo Canadian Prime Ministers every 10 years or so. But we have yet to see an Indo-Canadian, Iranian-Canadian or First Nation Canadian take the reigns. We did have one woman as PM by the way, and although women make up half the population, they have struggled as much as a "minority" group to gain influence in law making etc.

I don't think hiring people because of their skin colour or ethnic background is actually ethical. Qualifications really need to be the benchmark. A realtor or a marketer will hire a person because they're Chinese and speak Mandrin. If their qualifications are nil, the marketer loses. So, as you have pointed out, the mix of multi-culturalism and the sheer numbers of people coming to live in North America has upped the chances of there being a qualified diversity of people available to study themselves... and even govern everyone.


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