Hundreds die in Israel raid on Gaza


by Abdelrahman
Tags: gaza, hundreds, israel, raid
tiny-tim
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Dec28-08, 07:11 AM
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Quote Quote by Abdelrahman View Post
I can't even begin to comprehend how this argument could be made now, it's the same as saying that the Jews in a holocaust camp killed a Nazi officer.
Hi Abdelrahman!

You obviously don't understand what a holocaust camp was.

There were two types death camps and "ordinary" camps.

In the death camps, such as Auschwitz II and Sobibor, a thousand or so Jews (or occasionally Gypsies) would arrive by train, hundreds of miles from their homes, and would within an hour or so be taken into "shower-rooms" where they would be killed by gas.

In the "ordinary" camps, Jews and others would be gradually worked to death.
Look it up on the internet, or in books you'll see that there's no comparison between the holocaust and Gaza at all.
Quote Quote by Abdelrahman View Post
Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
Germany's aim was to exterminate the Jews (and the inter-marrying tribes of Gypsies).

Israel's aim is to live at peace with its Arab neighbours.
I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.
War isn't supposed to be fair it isn't a sport, like boxing, where you don't fight someone who's much smaller than you.

In war, if you have overwhelming force, then you're perfectly entitled to start using it, and the other side, if it's really interested in peace, will stop.

War is an unfortunate means of protecting your legal rights in this case, Israelis' right to live.

Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war.

Israel, under international law, is entitled to retaliate, first by economic sanctions, and then militarily.

Israel's reluctance is clear from the long time that it has waited before military retaliation.
Art
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Dec28-08, 07:29 AM
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Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post

Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can … under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war.
Hamas had killed a grand total of exactly zero Israelis in the months preceding this attack whilst Israel has killed dozens of Palestinians in the same time frame. But eh, Palestinians are all terrorists so that's okay right?

Meanwhile the war warmongering, evil witch, Tzipi Livni, who recently suggested all Arabs living in Israel should be removed is really a peace loving humanitarian I suppose.
"Among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel... and tell them: 'Your national aspirations lie elsewhere.'"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779087.stm Then again she is by no means the only leading politician in Israel to promote a little ethnic cleansing but it seems such policies are only illegal if pursued by non-zionists.
mjsd
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Dec28-08, 07:48 AM
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Oh mine.... I have been away from this forum for 6 months due to study commitments... but it seems that nothing has changed... we are still arguing whether Israel/Palestine's actions are legit or not.

It amazes, as well as saddens me that both sides are still playing the same only game which perpetuate the situation despite that it is obviously unworkable.

Recently, we had an exchange student from Israel (by the way, he is not Jewish, he is originally from Russia but studied physics in Israel) joining our department. The first thing I asked him was on the topic of "the threat of rocket attacks" and whether "he fears everyday about the possibility of an attack". I must say that I was surprised to hear his response which went somehting like:
"... it is all a bit of an exaggeration... we, in the capital city, don't get any rockets at all.. it is only the small regions of the border towns are affected...", he then added,
"... seriously, I didn't feel threaten at all.. and most ppl (at least the ppl I knew).. simply go by their daily business without any concerns.... the TV stations do make a big fuss about the rockets though..."

No doubt, whether it is just border towns or the entire map of Israel is threaten by rockets, it should not in any way change our perspective of right and wrong.... whether it is just 1 or 229 civilians killed, it is equally bad. However, time and again the impression I've got from the media is that Israel is responding in the current way because "they have no other choices available, and that their entire population cannot live a normal life"

seriously? have we, the western ppl, run of new ideas already? Well, I guess the "terrorists" have and can only resort to barbaric means of retaliation, but surely, we can do better than just perpetuating the situation?
tiny-tim
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Dec28-08, 08:07 AM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
Hamas had killed a grand total of exactly zero Israelis in the months preceding this attack whilst Israel has killed dozens of Palestinians in the same time frame.
I just googled "sderot + ceasefire", and came up with this
A Palestinian rocket exploded right outside a Sderot supermarket on Wednesday evening, December 17, in one of the worst Qassam attacks on Sderot since the ceasefire began. Rocket shrapnel lightly wounded three people, with one man suffering a light head wound, according to a MADA spokesperson on scene.

Since the ceasefire began on June 21, over 400 Qassam rockets have been fired at Sderot and the western Negev, making the number of rockets fired at Israel during this ceasefire significantly more than the number fired in the previous Hamas-Israel ceasefire in 2007. To date, over 10,000 Palestinian rockets have been fired at southern Israel since 2001.
As I said, Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war.

The low number of deaths (as opposed to "mere" injuries) is not for Hamas' want of trying, and does not make it any less an act of war.
Quote Quote by Art
Meanwhile the war warmongering, evil witch, Tzipi Livni, who recently suggested all Arabs living in Israel should be removed is really a peace loving humanitarian I suppose. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779087.stm
erm "removed"? the actual quote from Livni in that report is:
"There is no question of carrying out a transfer or forcing them [Israeli Arabs] to leave," she told public radio.
"I am willing to give up a part of the country over which I believe we have rights so that Israel will remain a Jewish and democratic state in which citizens have equal rights, whatever their religion," she added.
To me, that looks like exchanging land for peace.
Art
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Dec28-08, 08:20 AM
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Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
I just googled "sderot + ceasefire", and came up with this


As I said, Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war. The low number of deaths (as opposed to "mere" injuries) is not for Hamas' want of trying, and does not make it any less an act of war.
The low number of deaths you keep referring to is, as I said previously, precisely ZERO! Whereas the Israelis have been far more successful in their attempts to kill Palestinians with dozens of 'successes' prior to Saturdays murderous assault.




Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
erm "removed"? the actual quote from Livni in that report is:


To me, that looks like exchanging land for peace.
I suggest you have another look then. She was referring to the 1 million Arabs living in the state of Israel, unless you are suggesting she intends handing over lumps of Israel to them. Somewhat unlikely don't you think Her qualifying remarks came AFTER there was an international outcry about her first statement.

In remarks to school children broadcast on Israeli radio, Ms Livni's said her solution for maintaining a Jewish and democratic state of Israel was "to have two distinct national entities".

"Among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel... and tell them: 'Your national aspirations lie elsewhere.'"

Arab MP Ahmed Tibi demanded that Ms Livni be absolutely open about what she meant, as befits a candidate for Israel's prime ministership.

"She must decide whether she means to leave 1m Arabs without political rights or a national identity, or whether she really intends to transfer 1m Arab citizens to the Palestinian state that will be established," he told Israeli army radio.
Seems pretty unambiguous to me.
russ_watters
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Dec28-08, 08:42 AM
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Quote Quote by Abdelrahman View Post
Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!!!
So Hamas is not very good at killing Jews. We know. But they really should know by now that if you mess with the bull too long, eventually you'll get the horns. Hamas had been poking that hornets nest with a stick for weeks before it swarmed them.
russ_watters
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Dec28-08, 08:43 AM
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Quote Quote by Vanadium 50 View Post
To be fair to Hamas, they did announce an end to the cease fire, so it's not exactly a violation.
Perhaps - but either way, if it is a violation of the cease fire or just a unilateral resumption of hostilities by Hamas after it ended, it's still on Hamas.
russ_watters
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Dec28-08, 08:44 AM
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Quote Quote by Abdelrahman View Post
I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.
Who said war was supposed to be fair? But hey, I'm a fair guy - I'll trade you those 400 Hamas rockets (from a quote above) for 400 Israeli laser guided bombs. Sound good to you?
Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
You should really look up Goodwin's law.

You could also try arguing your own case instead of dropping an open-ended, intentionally leading question. Our standards are higher here than you are probably used to and we don't fall for such tactics here.
russ_watters
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Dec28-08, 08:45 AM
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Quote Quote by waht View Post
This is clearly an unproportional response by the Isreal, that serves no practical purpose other than to invite the hearts and minds of every Palestinian citizen to take up arms and fight. And at the expense of 200 dead (mostly civilian), and US military aid. Genius!!!
By what logic should a response be proportional? (Hint: there is no such school of thought on warfare.)

It's not exactly rocket science:
"The art of using troops is this:
......When ten to the enemy's one, surround him;
......When five times his strength, attack him;
......If double his strength, divide him;
......If equally matched you may engage him;
......If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
......And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
..........for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."
- Sun Tzu, the Art Of War
http://www.military-quotes.com/Sun-Tzu.htm
russ_watters
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Dec28-08, 08:52 AM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
If Israel had killed 1 Palestinian civilan and Hamas responded by killing 271 Israelis I wonder how many on here would be falling over themselves to justify such a response from Palestinians?
Since that bears no resemblance to what happened, the response is obvious: the intentional killing of civilians by Hamas is a crime against humanity. It's the same in your fictional scenario as it is in real life.

Or, alternately, if Hamas began to confine it's attacks to strictly military targets, perhaps they could shake the "terrorist" label. Their attacks are, by definition, indiscriminate attacks on civilians - they use unguided rockets.
Israel is a terrorist state whose leaders should be tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
For defending itself? Please.
This seems to turn logic on it's head. I find it amazing that so many on here are happy to try and justify mass murder.
Well try actually applying some logic then, instead of just making open-ended pronouncements. No one's going to do your work for you.
tiny-tim
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Dec28-08, 08:56 AM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
unless you are suggesting she intends handing over lumps of Israel to them
Well, yes I am
because that's what she said!
"to have two distinct national entities".

"Among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel... and tell them: 'Your national aspirations lie elsewhere.'"
Seems pretty unambiguous to me.
Yes, she's unambiguously saying that she wants two national states.

And that, just as if Jews living in the UK or US want "national aspirations" as Jews, they have to look to Israel (but if they want national aspirations as Britons or Americans, they look to Britain or America)

so if Palestinians living in Israel want "national aspirations" as Palestinians, they have to look to Palestine (but if they want national aspirations as Israelis, as many apparently do, they look to Israel).
What does that have to do with removing them?
Her qualifying remarks came AFTER there was an international outcry about her first statement.

What "international outcry"?

The BBC report you linked to only mentions

Politicians from the minority Arab community have demanded she clarify if it means that Arabs citizens will face loss of rights in Israel or expulsion.
Israeli Arab MKs asking (perfectly reasonable ) awkward pre-election questions.
russ_watters
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Dec28-08, 09:08 AM
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By the way, we have standards of intellectual honesty here and some assertions and implications about the nature of the attacks by Israle have been made that are factually untrue. In particular:

-Most of the dead in Gaza are not civilians, they are Hamas security personnel. Hamas is a paramilitary organization and their police force most definitely are combatants.
-Israel is targeting military/government installations, not civilians.

These facts can be gained from any responsible news source. Here are two:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...kes/index.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...alestine_N.htm

[edit] Note also that as Al Jazeera articles go, that one in the OP isn't too bad and it does not make the claim that Israel is targeting anything but Hamas and it does not make the claim that more civilians than Hamas personnel were killed (though it does include a quote from Hamas that implies it).
OAQfirst
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Dec28-08, 09:57 AM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm
But the Egyptian foreign minister has accused Hamas of not allowing injured Palestinians to leave Gaza to seek treatment, even though much-needed medical supplies are waiting at the nearby El-Arish airport.

...

Israel said it initially began easing the blockade, but this was halted when Hamas failed to fulfil what Israel says were agreed conditions, including ending all rocket fire and halting weapons smuggling.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...PRq3gD958NJFO0
Israel said three militants were spotted planting explosives in northern Gaza along the border fence. Soldiers crossed a few yards into Gaza and engaged the Palestinians, who threw grenades. The military said soldiers returned fire, hitting the three. Israeli media said they were killed, the first to die since the truce ended.
Should Israel concede and open the border, would the violence stop? Would Hamas be satisfied? I'm not seeing it.
Art
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Dec28-08, 12:43 PM
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Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
By the way, we have standards of intellectual honesty here and some assertions and implications about the nature of the attacks by Israle have been made that are factually untrue. In particular:

-Most of the dead in Gaza are not civilians, they are Hamas security personnel. Hamas is a paramilitary organization and their police force most definitely are combatants.
-Israel is targeting military/government installations, not civilians.

.
Spot the irony . Under the Geneva Convention, Paragraph 3 Article 43, police forces are categorised as civilians and their civilian status is further underlined in UN Resolution 690 (1979). but hey don't let a few facts stand in the way of your intellectual dishonesty.

C. War and other emergency situations- occupation by a foreign power[3]

1. A police officer shall continue to perform his tasks of protecting persons and property during war and enemy occupation in the interests of the civilian population. For that reason he shall not have the status of "combatant", and the provisions of the Third Geneva Convention of 12 August 1949, relative to the treatment of prisoners of war, shall not apply.

2. The provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 12 August 1949, relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war, apply to the civilian police.
http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/Ad...79/ERES690.htm




Next time some gangbangers in LA kills some rich white person perhaps the US military should wipe out the LA police force and the local neighbourhood for not forestalling the attack. Afterall if it is good enough for Palestinians it should be good enough for Americans.
tiny-tim
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Dec28-08, 01:36 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
Under the Geneva Convention, Paragraph 3 Article 43, police forces are categorised as civilians and their civilian status is further underlined in UN Resolution 690 (1979). but hey don't let a few facts stand in the way of your intellectual dishonesty.
uhh?

this (from the international red cross website) is Geneva Convention (IV), Part III Article 43
Part III : Status and treatment of protected persons #Section II : Aliens in the territory of a party to the conflict
ARTICLE 43
Any protected person who has been interned or placed in assigned residence shall be entitled to have such action reconsidered as soon as possible by an appropriate court or administrative board designated by the Detaining Power for that purpose. If the internment or placing in assigned residence is maintained, the court or administrative board shall periodically, and at least twice yearly, give consideration to his or her case, with a view to the favourable amendment of the initial decision, if circumstances permit.
Unless the protected persons concerned object, the Detaining Power shall, as rapidly as possible, give the Protecting Power the names of any protected persons who have been interned or subjected to assigned residence, or who have been released from internment or assigned residence. The decisions of the courts or boards mentioned in the first paragraph of the present Article shall also, subject to the same conditions, be notified as rapidly as possible to the Protecting Power.
It doesn't even mention police or civilians,

and, so far as I know, nor does any part of the Geneva conventions.
Does "intellectual dishonesty" include making things up?
Quote Quote by Art
http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/Ad...79/ERES690.htm
C. War and other emergency situations- occupation by a foreign power[3]
This is a Council of Europe article

It has no legal force, and no application whatever, to the Middle East.

Why are you mentioning it?
Hamas security personnel are not civilians.
Art
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Dec28-08, 01:41 PM
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Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
just as if Jews living in the UK or US want "national aspirations" as Jews, they have to look to Israel (but if they want national aspirations as Britons or Americans, they look to Britain or America)
There's a slight difference. If the UK or the US declared itself a Christian state for Christians then I imagine members of minority religions would feel rather threatened.

A major stumbling block in the recognition of Israel by the PLO is Israel's insistence that the Palestinians recognise Israel as a Jewish state. This is no mere semantics. By declaring the state Jewish the Zionists look to bolster their position in refusing re-entry to the displaced Palestinians and to allow for forced resettlement of non-Jews i.e. Arabs.
Hurkyl
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Dec28-08, 01:57 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
A major stumbling block in the recognition of Israel by the PLO
The PLO is irrelevant at the moment....
russ_watters
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Dec28-08, 02:11 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
Spot the irony . Under the Geneva Convention, Paragraph 3 Article 43, police forces are categorised as civilians and their civilian status is further underlined in UN Resolution 690 (1979). but hey don't let a few facts stand in the way of your intellectual dishonesty.
Even if you could find and quote some international law about police forces that applies to the Middle East, it still wouldn't be relevant: The Hamas police force is not a civilian police force. It is a paramilitary force. It participates in Hamas's paramilitary activities. Example:
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Saturday outlawed the Hamas-led Interior Ministry’s police force, the most powerful armed unit outside his control in factional fighting that has left 33 people dead in the last month....

Abbas claims authority over the various armed Palestinian forces created in the 1990s by Yasser Arafat, the late Fatah and Palestinian Authority leader. Today they include two police agencies with 15,000 members each in addition to the elite Presidential Guard, which is being enlarged from 4,000 to 6,000 members.

Hamas formed the Executive Force in March, saying the Fatah-led forces had become corrupt and ineffective.
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jan...g-palestinian7

Heck, you can even get this for alJazeera:
On Wednesday evening it was reported that Hamas had attacked the three main security force compounds in Gaza City - the headquarters of the Preventive Security, the Intelligence Service and the National Forces.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...614111868.html

These article is an example of how the various security/police forces are being used as paramilitary fighters in their warlord infighting. They can't have it both ways.


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