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Hundreds die in Israel raid on Gaza

by Abdelrahman
Tags: gaza, hundreds, israel, raid
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tiny-tim
#37
Dec28-08, 02:20 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
There's a slight difference. If the UK or the US declared itself a Christian state for Christians then I imagine members of minority religions would feel rather threatened.
Actually, the UK is a Christian state … the Church of England is the "established church", with the Queen as its head.

More to the point, there are plenty of Islamic states …

do you "imagine members of minority religions would feel rather threatened" in those existing Islamic states?

Since there are existing Christian and Islamic states, isn't it rather racist to suggest there's something intrinsically wrong with a Jewish state?
By declaring the state Jewish the Zionists look to bolster their position in refusing re-entry to the displaced Palestinians and to allow for forced resettlement of non-Jews i.e. Arabs.
No mainstream Israeli politician ever suggests resettlement of Arabs …

Israeli Arabs are integrated Israeli citizens, with full legal rights, their own MKs, etc …

being a Jewish state makes no difference to that …

the closest an Israeli politician has got to suggesting reducing the Arab population is suggestions of redrawing the Israeli border.
Art
#38
Dec28-08, 02:24 PM
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Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
uhh?

this (from the international red cross website) is Geneva Convention (IV), Part III Article 43 …


It doesn't even mention police or civilians, …

and, so far as I know, nor does any part of the Geneva conventions.
Does "intellectual dishonesty" include making things up?

This is a Council of Europe article …

It has no legal force, and no application whatever, to the Middle East.

Why are you mentioning it?
Hamas security personnel are not civilians.
Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension skills. It mentions law enforcement agencies, fyi this means police

They are considered civilian unless they are specifically nominated as part of the military forces by their commanding party.

Article 43-Armed forces

3. Whenever a Party to a conflict incorporates a paramilitary or armed law enforcement agency into its armed forces it shall so notify the other Parties to the conflict.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm

To my knowledge no such communication has been made by Hamas therefore under the Geneva Conventions the Gaza police have the legal status of civilians.
Hurkyl
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Dec28-08, 02:32 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
To my knowledge no such communication has been made by Hamas therefore under the Geneva Conventions the Gaza police have the legal status of civilians.
Huh? The clause you quoted says nothing about whether a police force counts as civilian or not. The clause merely compels a party to announce when they incorporate the police into their armed forces -- not making such an announcement would constitute a violation of the convention.
Phrak
#40
Dec28-08, 02:33 PM
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Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
War isn't supposed to be fair … it isn't a sport, like boxing, where you don't fight someone who's much smaller than you.

In war, if you have overwhelming force, then you're perfectly entitled to start using it, and the other side, if it's really interested in peace, will stop.

War is an unfortunate means of protecting your legal rights … in this case, Israelis' right to live.

Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can … under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war.

Israel, under international law, is entitled to retaliate, first by economic sanctions, and then militarily.
Israel's reluctance is clear from the long time that it has waited before military retaliation.
I'd have to disagree with you on a couple points.

War doesn't have a purpose in and of itself. Warring parties have purposes.

An entitlement is a legal instrument. When someone comes to kill or your family, do you first consult a law book to see if the UN will let you protect yourself?

Israel's reluctance in protecting itself as it is militarily capable has been the direct result of international sanctions laid down explicitly in UN resolutions.

Tchitt asks the right quesion "I don't understand this "war"... why are they just lobbing explosives back and forth at each other? It would seem to me that someone should just invade and occupy someone else and be done with it."

Historically the UN establishs uneasy peace. Korea, Sierra Leon, Bosnia, Isreal...
Art
#41
Dec28-08, 02:58 PM
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Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
Actually, the UK is a Christian state … the Church of England is the "established church", with the Queen as its head.
Actually the UK is not a Christian state in any legal sense whatsoever.

Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
More to the point, there are plenty of Islamic states …

do you "imagine members of minority religions would feel rather threatened" in those existing Islamic states?
Yes I do so imagine.

Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
Since there are existing Christian and Islamic states, isn't it rather racist to suggest there's something intrinsically wrong with a Jewish state?
Still waiting for an example of a Christian state enshrined in law as Israel wishes to do with it's Jewish state. As for Islamic states, no I don't agree with them either. I'm against all forms of religious bigotry.


Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
No mainstream Israeli politician ever suggests resettlement of Arabs …

Israeli Arabs are integrated Israeli citizens, with full legal rights, their own MKs, etc …

being a Jewish state makes no difference to that …

the closest an Israeli politician has got to suggesting reducing the Arab population is suggestions of redrawing the Israeli border.
Really? If everyone is so equal why are there issues such as this,
Today, 23 September 2007, Adalah filed a petition to the Supreme Court of Israel demanding the cancellation of regional selection committees, which select their residents from among candidates who wish to live in ‘community towns’ in Israel. In practice these selection committees exclude certain groups, such as Arab citizens, Mizrahi Jews (Eastern Jews), single parents and gay people, from community towns as ‘socially unsuitable’.
or articles like this in the Israeli press
It smells like discrimination
By Muhammad Amara

The widening gap between Israel's Jewish majority and the Arab minority is worrying and poses many questions as to the country's Arab-Jewish coexistence. Nearly every day statements are heard from senior figures concerning the legitimacy of Arab citizens, and unbridled attacks have become routine: MK Israel Hasson of Yisrael Beiteinu is talking about a second War of Independence against the Arab citizens in Israel, MK Otniel Schneller of Kadima is talking about establishing task forces to examine the possibility of population exchanges and the head of the Shin Bet security service is talking about the Arabs as a strategic threat.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/857766.html Maybe you should take the blinkers off
tiny-tim
#42
Dec28-08, 03:00 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
It mentions law enforcement agencies …
No it doesn't!!

What document are you quoting from?
They are considered civilian unless they are specifically nominated as part of the military forces by their commanding party.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm
oh i see … that's Part III, Article 43, of the Protocol I of 1979 to the Geneva Conventions

which I don't think have been ratified by any Middle eastern country (including Israel), or even the USA

… but let's have a look anyway …
Article 43.-Armed forces

1. The armed forces of a Party to a conflict consist of all organized armed forces, groups and units which are under a command responsible to that Party for the conduct of its subordinates, even if that Party is represented by a government or an authority not recognized by an adverse Party. Such armed forces shall be subject to an internal disciplinary system which, inter alia, shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict.
2. Members of the armed forces of a Party to a conflict (other than medical personnel and chaplains covered by Article 33 of the Third Convention) are combatants, that is to say, they have the right to participate directly in hostilities.

3. Whenever a Party to a conflict incorporates a paramilitary or armed law enforcement agency into its armed forces it shall so notify the other Parties to the conflict.
Well, this clearly says that an armed law enforcement agency can be "armed forces" (and therefore not civilians)!
Quote Quote by Art
To my knowledge no such communication has been made by Hamas therefore under the Geneva Conventions the Gaza police have the legal status of civilians.
erm … oh, Hurkyl has beaten me to it!
Art
#43
Dec28-08, 03:01 PM
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Quote Quote by Hurkyl View Post
Huh? The clause you quoted says nothing about whether a police force counts as civilian or not. The clause merely compels a party to announce when they incorporate the police into their armed forces -- not making such an announcement would constitute a violation of the convention.
If you don't understand the clause and it's ramifications maybe you could ask a patient friend to explain it to you. Though if you try really hard you might be able to think it through for yourself. As a hint start by looking at the heading - Armed Forces and then the subsections; what constitutes armed forces, and by omission what doesn't. See it yet?? What doesn't constitute armed forces equals civilian. See it's simple really.
tiny-tim
#44
Dec28-08, 03:20 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
Actually the UK is not a Christian state in any legal sense whatsoever.
uhh? I'm a UK citizen, resident in the UK, and …

yes it is! (for the reasons I've already given)
Really? If everyone is so equal why are there issues such as this
…[]
or articles like this in the Israeli press
uhh? How does that contradict what I said …
Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
Israeli Arabs are integrated Israeli citizens, with full legal rights, their own MKs, etc …
these issues are reported in a free press, and (as the first quote specifies) show that the Israeli Arabs do have full access to the courts when their rights are in issue!

(btw, no country is perfect …

but Israel is probably less racist than the UK or USA (despite having been at war for 60 years) …)

You originally completely misquoted Livni (about wanting to resettle Israeli Arabs), and instead of admitting it, you're now trying to steer discussion away from the point.
Art
#45
Dec28-08, 03:21 PM
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Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
No it doesn't!!
Still struggling with the reading comprehension I see

Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
What document are you quoting from?
Err, try the one I linked to


Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
oh i see … that's Part III, Article 43, of the Protocol I of 1979 to the Geneva Conventions

which I don't think have been ratified by any Middle eastern country (including Israel), or even the USA
Ah the penny drops, finally

Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
… but let's have a look anyway …


Well, this clearly says that an armed law enforcement agency can be "armed forces" (and therefore not civilians)!


erm … oh, Hurkyl has beaten me to it!
Sigh, back to the reading comprehension problem again
Art
#46
Dec28-08, 03:28 PM
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Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
uhh? I'm a UK citizen, resident in the UK, and …
therefore you should know a lot more about the constitutional nature of your own country. Shame on you that you don't. To kick start your education you should know the UK doesn't even have an established religion. England does but Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland do not and even England is multi-faith as you may notice as you walk past the odd Hindu temple or mosque here and there.

Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
yes it is! (for the reasons I've already given)
What reasons??? You have not provided any reasons other than your own woefully ill-informed opinions.


Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
uhh? How does that contradict what I said …


these issues are reported in a free press, and (as the first quote specifies) show that the Israeli Arabs do have full access to the courts when their rights are in issue!
If Arabs weren't being discriminated against then these cases wouldn't have arisen in the first place, Doh!

Quote Quote by tiny-tim View Post
(btw, no country is perfect …

but Israel is probably less racist than the UK or USA (despite having been at war for 60 years) …)

You originally completely misquoted Livni (about wanting to resettle Israeli Arabs), and instead of admitting it, you're now trying to steer discussion away from the point.
Misquoted? I cut and pasted what she actually said.
tiny-tim
#47
Dec28-08, 03:48 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
Misquoted? I cut and pasted what she actually said.
No … even after you edited it, you still misquoted her …
Quote Quote by Art View Post
Meanwhile the war warmongering, evil witch, Tzipi Livni, who recently suggested all Arabs living in Israel should be removed is really a peace loving humanitarian I suppose.
Among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel... and tell them: 'Your national aspirations lie elsewhere.'"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779087.stm Then again she is by no means the only leading politician in Israel to promote a little ethnic cleansing but it seems such policies are only illegal if pursued by non-zionists.
your two misquotations are the two parts I've emphasised, which are simply not borne out by your cut-and-paste.
devil-fire
#48
Dec28-08, 07:27 PM
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I find it hard to believe that Israel is firmly pressed into these decisions to attack Gaza when the ratio of people killed is 200:1. I can't imagine how the death of an Israeli citizen calls for an entire campaign of military action by Israel and the deaths of hundreds of people, including the head of police and democratically elected politicians.

It seems to me like Israel would be perfectly happy if Gaza disappeared one morning by Divine intervention and they could get on with their business.
Cyrus
#49
Dec28-08, 07:33 PM
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Quote Quote by devil-fire View Post
I find it hard to believe that Israel is firmly pressed into these decisions to attack Gaza when the ratio of people killed is 200:1. I can't imagine how the death of an Israeli citizen calls for an entire campaign of military action by Israel and the deaths of hundreds of people, including the head of police and democratically elected politicians.

It seems to me like Israel would be perfectly happy if Gaza disappeared one morning by Divine intervention and they could get on with their business.
You can't see why indescriminate attacks on the civilian population would necessitate the need for a show of force to stop said actions? I find that hard to believe.
Phrak
#50
Dec28-08, 07:43 PM
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Quote Quote by devil-fire View Post
It seems to me like Israel would be perfectly happy if Gaza disappeared one morning by Divine intervention and they could get on with their business.
Who needs Devine intervention. A large team of bull dozers, and demolition units could work there way from one side to the Gaza Strip to the Egyptian boarder in fairly good time. This should take care of, what some see, as an unfair state of attrition.
mheslep
#51
Dec28-08, 08:39 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
...
My opinion of Israel's culpability is echoed by the UN. This from Dec 10th http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7774988.stm
No, Richard Falk is not 'the UN'. He was appointed by the misnamed UN Human Rights Council, which includes Arab states Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Jordan, Pakistan, Qatar, Indonesia, and other human rights luminaries such as China, Cuba. The UN HRC has passed 60% of its resolutions on Israel and none on, say, Zimbabwe or Saudia Arabia. Its an abomination.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2301643.htm
Proton Soup
#52
Dec28-08, 09:14 PM
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Quote Quote by Art View Post
There's a slight difference. If the UK or the US declared itself a Christian state for Christians then I imagine members of minority religions would feel rather threatened.

A major stumbling block in the recognition of Israel by the PLO is Israel's insistence that the Palestinians recognise Israel as a Jewish state. This is no mere semantics. By declaring the state Jewish the Zionists look to bolster their position in refusing re-entry to the displaced Palestinians and to allow for forced resettlement of non-Jews i.e. Arabs.
do any of the other middle-eastern nations identify themselves as religious states? say... i dunno, Islamic states? does Israel recognize any of them? because if so, i don't see what the stumbling block here is.
WhoWee
#53
Dec28-08, 10:50 PM
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[QUOTE=russ_watters;2015428]Who said war was supposed to be fair? But hey, I'm a fair guy - I'll trade you those 400 Hamas rockets (from a quote above) for 400 Israeli laser guided bombs. Sound good to you? You should really look up Goodwin's law.

In practice you could suggest Goodwin's Law (after I believe 15 to 20 years now) should start to be questioned or reconsidered...but alas, the more trivialized/desensitized the topic becomes...the more relevant and accurate Goodwin becomes...I think it will stand the test of time.
devil-fire
#54
Dec28-08, 11:24 PM
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Quote Quote by Cyrus View Post
You can't see why indescriminate attacks on the civilian population would necessitate the need for a show of force to stop said actions? I find that hard to believe.
So the solution to lasting peace to is to kill enough people in Gaza so only the people who don't hate Israel are left? I don't think this will help bring peace to the area.


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