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Fatima: Did 70,000 people witness a miracle? |
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| Apr17-07, 09:48 AM | #18 |
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Fatima: Did 70,000 people witness a miracle?
It could have been some cosmic event that interacted with the sun,
some thing akin to, but not the same as the northern lights. |
| May12-07, 03:10 PM | #19 |
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| May13-07, 04:47 PM | #20 |
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| Jun2-07, 05:53 AM | #21 |
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I would probably look in to the affect it still has on the people. If they seem to be self-policing unusually well on the basis of the Sun incidence proving to them their was an ultimate being out there; then they probably saw it. It would also be important to look into the propaganda techniques used after the occasion to embed the concept.
Why is Mary called Fatima in this region? Is that right? It seems strange as Fatima is an Arabic name, and it is the name of the daughter of the Prophet Muhammad, the final messenger in Islam - after Jesus, Noah, Moses, and Abraham etc. |
| Jun2-07, 10:41 AM | #22 |
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While 30 km sounds like a large distance, it really isn't. Are there any atmospheric conditions that could account for a distortion of the way the sun appeared? Since a storm had just passed, that would seem like the most plausible explanation for so many seeing the same thing, but only within a limited area. It would suggest it's not an astronomical phenomenon, but more a local atmsopheric, weather-related phenomenon, perhaps even due to rapid evaporation of the recently fallen rain when the hot sun reappeared creating a fairly local distortion of the view of the sun. I would doubt the idea of a magic trick. If only a crowd surrounding a particular building saw it, then I could give some possible consideration to that suggestion, but it would be incredibly difficult to create an illusion visible over 30 km with the technology available at the time and not have someone see "behind the scenes" from some angle. Thus, I'd be inclined to think it's something higher in the atmosphere sufficient to distort the view of the sun over a limited range. If it were the sun itself, you'd expect everyone experiencing daylight hours at that time would have seen it.
Unfortunately, the photo posted earlier (I assume there was a photo in that link) no longer exists on that page, so I can't see what that shows, if anything. It isn't inconceivable that a rare event viewed by a population that is highly religious and limited in their knowledge of any natural explanation for the event could be easily convinced it was of supernatural origin. Plenty of things that have perfectly reasonable, natural explanations have been attributed to supernatural forces throughout history. For example, we now know that one can observe a "plague of locusts" pretty much every time there is sufficient rain in the desert for the eggs latent in the ground to hatch. It's not a hard stretch of the imagination to see why a society with less understanding of locust life cycles would interpret that as a supernatural event, when millions of locusts suddenly emerge from the ground en masse. Tosh, in answer to your brief question, as far as I know, no, they do not call Mary by the name Fatima in that region. The name of the town is Fatima, hence the term "Our Lady of Fatima," which refers to their belief in her appearance there. |
| Jun19-07, 07:17 AM | #23 |
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| Jun19-07, 07:39 AM | #24 |
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A good case is made here:
http://web.archive.org/web/200602141...s/fatima3.html |
| Jun19-07, 07:50 AM | #25 |
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Please believe me...i'm Portuguese, this history is just non-sensical and tedious
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| Jun19-07, 08:07 AM | #26 |
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| Jun19-07, 01:48 PM | #27 |
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As far as Fatima goes, if the event can be replicated the cause may be understood. |
| Jun19-07, 01:57 PM | #28 |
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If the event could be duplicated there wouldn't be a mystery.
You need to spend less time with oranges.
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| Jun19-07, 10:24 PM | #29 |
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| Feb24-10, 12:23 PM | #30 |
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[edit by Ivan] ...erroneously supposing that science supercedes reason. Indeed it is the other way around; the scientific method, though wonderful, is only one expression of valid reason. Just because the scientific method cannot explain something does not mean that reason also cannot.
Your prejudice against the miraculous is entirely unjustified. You only label those things you don't WANT to be true as hallucinations. You would of course never dare label as a hallucination those observations made by scientists to form the foundation of those physical laws in which you put all of your faith and hope. |
| Feb24-10, 01:04 PM | #31 |
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Mentor
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It isn't a matter of "want". The scientific method is a way to examine the world and scientists use it bacause it works. No other method (such as religion) has proven to be capable of duplicating that success.
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| Feb24-10, 05:42 PM | #32 |
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You are assuming that the scientific method 'cannot explain things'... not a very good assumption... Doesn't hold water in my opinion AT ALL... Maybe WE can't explain things because we don't have data or can not collect data to USE science but that is far from meaning 'science cannot explain it'. Prejudice against the miraculous is not entirely unjustified. The fact of the matter is that people don't have to believe in something without proof. And the burden of supplying the proof is on those that BELIEVE. I have never seen a miracle or been shown that miracles do occur other than thru hearsay or 'take my word for it' that's falling way short of making me think they happen. Another assumption: that people claim all miracles are just 'hallucinations'. What in the world makes you assume that? Another assumption: that people would never claim a scientist is hallucinating something. What in the world makes you think that? Another assumption: that scientists put faith and hope into physical laws. Far from true, many scientists accept that physical laws may at some point be shown to be untrue. They just haven't yet. I guess I kind of DO hope that the physical laws don't 'change' however, it might mean disastrous things for us humans. |
| Mar6-10, 04:54 PM | #33 |
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Our perceptions are colored by our biases. Any scientist or even half curious undergrad understands that the world as we experience it is not the 'full story,' for lack of a better word. The world is in constant chaos, things are a zooming and zapping and crashing constantly. Our senses do sense this but by the time it reaches our awareness most of the 'fluff' has been filtered out and a nice organized and orderly picture is put together in our brains for us to be able to function. Fairly random vibrations in the air are combined in our brains to give us a beautiful melody, light waves bouncing, reflecting, refracting etc are combined in our brain into the Mona Lisa. Our brains are constantly turning all this chaos into order so that we can actually be functioning organisms.
So with that said, I think this video can shed some light on how established biases can make us perceive some strange things. The whole video is about 13-14 minutes long and is really good but if you are strapped for time, just go to ~8:50 and watch from there. To someone who may not understand neuroscience it would seem like some sort of magic or brainwashing but in reality it is just someone who gives your brain a bit of help in creating order from chaos. Watch the video and you'll know what I'm talking about. http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_she...ge_things.html |
| Mar8-10, 12:14 AM | #34 |
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Yes, if part of a religious community, it would seem "normal" for those not experiencing anything to claim that they have... in an secret emotional hope that they will also receive a similar miracle by outwardly agreeing to an experience that they did not witness or a part of.
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