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Can the speed of sound reach the speed of light?

by michael3.1415
Tags: light, reach, sound, speed
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michael3.1415
#1
Jun21-10, 12:55 PM
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1. The equation given in my Physics text for the speed of sound through air at a given temperature

v = (331.5 + 0.606T) m/sec

where T is degrees Celsius

According to this equation, there is a theoretical temperature at which the speed of sound would reach c:

331.5 + 0.606T = c = 3.00 x 10^8 m/sec

331.5 is insignificant so: 3.00 x 10^8 m/sec = 0.606T and T = 4.95 x 10^8 degrees Celsius

The temperature at the center of the Sun is about 15 million degrees (1.5 x 10^7) so this is not ridiculously high.

Is this realistic, or is there a better equation for high temperatures? What would happen when this temperature is exceeded?
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Doc Al
#2
Jun21-10, 03:10 PM
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That equation for the speed of sound as a function of temperature is only valid for a relatively small range of temperatures and under certain conditions. (Certainly not at solar interior temperatures!) I'm unable to give you a better equation for sound speed at those temperatures, but I can tell you that relativity will prohibit any sound from traveling at the speed of light.

Interesting question!
michael3.1415
#3
Jun22-10, 05:44 PM
P: 4
Thanks for your reply! Two more questions:

1. I'm not that familiar with relativity, but doesn't that rule only apply to matter? Sound is a wave like light. It's a wave propogated by the compression and rarefaction of actual matter, I guess, so that's probably the difference.

2. How exactly do you define the speed of light? Light speed varies. While sound speeds usually speeds up in denser mediums, light is inhibited by the existence of matter.

Doc Al
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Jun22-10, 05:52 PM
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Can the speed of sound reach the speed of light?

Quote Quote by michael3.1415 View Post
1. I'm not that familiar with relativity, but doesn't that rule only apply to matter? Sound is a wave like light. It's a wave propogated by the compression and rarefaction of actual matter, I guess, so that's probably the difference.
That 'speed limit' applies to anything capable of transmitting energy or sending a signal. (And it certainly applies to mass moving.)

2. How exactly do you define the speed of light? Light speed varies. While sound speeds usually speeds up in denser mediums, light is inhibited by the existence of matter.
When we talk of nothing moving faster than the speed of light, we mean the speed of light in a vacuum.
Borek
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Jun22-10, 05:54 PM
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Sound is a longitudinal wave, when it propagates mass moves forward and back. So as the mass can't move faster than light, sound wave can't as well.
michael3.1415
#6
Jun22-10, 05:57 PM
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Quote Quote by Doc Al View Post


When we talk of nothing moving faster than the speed of light, we mean the speed of light in a vacuum.
So, it's theoretically possible for the speed of sound to reach the speed of light travelling through a medium?
Doc Al
#7
Jun22-10, 06:12 PM
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Quote Quote by michael3.1415 View Post
So, it's theoretically possible for the speed of sound to reach the speed of light travelling through a medium?
Beats me. But it's certainly possible (under the right conditions) to have a particle move through a substance faster than the speed of light in that substance. When a charged particle does this it can give off radiation. (Look up Cerenkov radiation.)

In any case, the relativistic 'speed limit' is the speed of light in a vacuum, not the (lower) speed of light in some medium.
michael3.1415
#8
Jun23-10, 09:14 PM
P: 4
Ok thanks. I checked up the Cerenkov radiation thing. Very interesting.
dulrich
#9
Jun24-10, 11:00 AM
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This link might help on the formula for the speed of sound:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ouspe3.html#c1

A "better" formula for the speed of sound (assuming air to be an ideal gas) is

[tex]\sqrt{\frac{\gamma kT}{M}} = \sqrt{\frac{\gamma P}{\rho}}[/tex]

This is still based on classical physics, so this formula will also break down when the speeds and energies become relativistic.
Beprepared
#10
Jun24-10, 11:11 AM
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Quote Quote by michael3.1415 View Post
So, it's theoretically possible for the speed of sound to reach the speed of light travelling through a medium?
this one, i can answer... yes, sound can travel the speed of light AND FASTER

here's the caviat. I do not mean the speed of light in a vacuum. Light can be slowed. There are MULTIPLE experiments that have slowed it to 90 m/s or less...

the speed of sound is 340 m/s +/- a bit. And that's just in air... it's even faster in solids


Sound can NEVER reach the speed of light in a vacuum... it is as close to impossible as a thing can be.

Impossible just means really REALLY difficult. The word for a thing that can not happen is "contradiction" :)
Borek
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Jun24-10, 11:29 AM
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Quote Quote by Beprepared View Post
Sound can NEVER reach the speed of light in a vacuum...
I would love to see how you are going to measure speed of sound in vacuum
Redbelly98
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Jun24-10, 12:37 PM
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Quote Quote by Beprepared View Post
this one, i can answer... yes, sound can travel the speed of light AND FASTER

here's the caviat. I do not mean the speed of light in a vacuum. Light can be slowed. There are MULTIPLE experiments that have slowed it to 90 m/s or less...

the speed of sound is 340 m/s +/- a bit. And that's just in air... it's even faster in solids
But those experiments with slow speed of light were done using Bose Einstein condensates (assuming you are referring to the work of Lene Hau?), a pretty unusual state of matter. Is there a known measurement of the speed of sound in such a material? Just because the speed of sound is something in air, and even faster in solids, does not imply anything about what it is in a Bose Einstein condensate.
Beprepared
#13
Jun24-10, 12:46 PM
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Quote Quote by Redbelly98 View Post
But those experiments with slow speed of light were done using Bose Einstein condensates (assuming you are referring to the work of Lene Hau?), a pretty unusual state of matter. Is there a known measurement of the speed of sound in such a material? Just because the speed of sound is something in air, and even faster in solids, does not imply anything about what it is in a Bose Einstein condensate.
very interesting point... i'd like to see info on that myself


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