Create or die (a 3 months team mission)

matt grime

he didn't say that, he siad he wants you to offer a self contained explanation of the reasoning you have chosen to adopt, whereas all you do is tell us that we can't understand it, and never tell us what it is.

no, doron, sqrt(2) is an element in the completion of the rationals, which are a localization of the integers which are obtained by adding formal inverses to the naturals. they are a construct of mathematics you reject, hence you cannot use them without explaining what the real numbers are in your system.

you've not defined rational so you can't say that it's irrational, the "unique place on the number line" is a pointless idea that some one who thinks the real numbers are mathematically defined as the real line would adopt, that is someone who doesn't know anything about mathematics really.

that'd be the thing you never explain just say we don't understand it.

you've not defined R so this is a meaningless statement.

you did indeed define a set which had no well defined arithmetic, and was completely useless. you yourself have admitted that you have not found a use for it.


he did ask you to explain "included middle" you failed to do so.

[quote]I have no problem to tell you in details about any specific term that you wish to know, but for this please do at least 3 things:

1) When you don’t understand something, simply say that you don’t understand it, instead of the repeating on the unnecessary “nonsense” and “crap” reflex-like responses.

2) I will not answer to any response which is based on commands, for example: “I want you to tell me…”.[quote]


that is hypocritical, meeting a demand with a demand, especially given your repeated posting of said crap with demands that we read it all.

no that's not true, more that you've never been able to adequately explain anything in langauge anyone else understands

several times we have asked you explicit and exact questions, never have you answered adequately, what makes you think we will believe you will start now?

here is a simple one, you keep talking about the real numbers, but you don't say what you mean by them, so define them.

define scale factor, that is a repeated request that has never been met.


is that your new use of the word tautology? just because you use the words doesn't mean you understand them or are using them correctly.

apologies to Tom; whilst Doron was off on this bizarre ramble I didn't post, but he's back to making spurious claims. However, I will only respond again if he actually makes any statements that answer the questions he has asked us to ask of him.

Lama

Ok matt, here is the first lesson of included-middle arithmetic:

By my included-middle axiomatic system there are two kinds of cardinals, two kinds of ordinals, and a scale factor, Which are used as the basis to define R and also my number system.


UC = Urelement Cardinal

QC = Quantitative Cardinal

IO = Internal Ordinal

EO = External Ordinal

SF = Scale Factor

Basic Scale factor is the ratio between 0 {.} or 1 {._.} to any other segment which is not 0_1.

Scale factor is {.} or any {._.} when it is used as the basic factor for the entire number system.

The basic arithmetical structure:

The first element of any arithmetic operation is always {.} or some {._.}.

The next parameter can be UC, QC, SF or a combination of them.

Any arithmetic always has a left to right direction of operations and the result of each pair is the basis of the next operation:

for example:

Addition and subtraction examples (only UC or {.} or {._.} are used):

0__2 + 0_1 = 0___3 (a new segment)

0__2 + 0_1.347… = 0____4.347…

{0__2} + {0_1} = {0__2, 0_1} (a new set of segments which its total length = 0___3)

{0__2} + {0_1.347…} = {0__2, 0_1.347…} (a set of segments which its total length = 0____4.347…

0__2 – 0_1 = 0_1 (a new segment)

0_1 – 0__2 = 1_0

0_1 – 0_1 = {}

0_1 – 1_0 = 0

1_0 – 0_1 = 0

1_0 – 1_0 = {}

1_0 – 1_0 – 1_0 = {} – 1_0 = 1_0

1_0 – 0_1 – 0_1 = 0 – 0_1 = 1_0

-0_1 = 1_0

-1_0 = 0_1

0 + 0 = 0

{0} + {0} = {0, 0}

0 - 0 = {}

{0} - {0} = {}



Multiplication and relations examples (QC or SF are used):


0__2 * QC3 = {0__2, 0__2, 0__2}

0___3 * QC2 = {0___3, 0___3}

The two results above are noncommutative (only if QC is used).

0_.5 * QC2 = {0_.5, 0_.5} (a set of segments which its total length = 0_1)

0_.5 * SF2 = 0_1


0__2 * SF3 = 0______6

0___3 * SF2 = 0______6

0__2 * SF0.5 = 0_1

-0__2 * SF0.5 = 1_0


0__2 / QC2 = {0_1, 0_1}

0__2 / SF2 = 0_1

0__2 / SF.5 = 0____4

0__2 / SF3.14…(PI) = 0__2/PI (and if we want we can notate it by a single symbol like 0__2/PI=@)


Also we can combine QC and SF for example:

0__2 / QC3 SF.14… = {0__2/3/SF.14…, 0__2/3/SF.14…, 0__2/3/SF.14…}

0__2 / SF.14… QC3 = {0__2/SF.14…/3, 0__2/SF.14…/3, 0__2/SF.14…/3}



0__2 / SF.14 = 0__2/SF.14…

X / 0 = {__}

0 / X = 0


As for a sqrt(2), it is the ratio between x-axis and y-axis identical segments.


IO and EO can be seen by using my new number system:

matt grime

That is an attempt, I suppose, though it only brings more questions (and doesn't really define anything), such as where on earth did 1.347... come from?

It appears you're just labelling things with decimal expansions and/or integers, and adding them using the rules of proper mathematics that you are dismissing, so it makes no consistent sense. In short, unless you can explain self consistently and without circularity where all the ordinary numbers you are using to label come from and their properties and rules of arithemetic, then you're not doing anything at all pointful.

You are also breaking the rules you laid out at the start of the thread.

Lama

0_1.347... = 0_1 + 0_.347...(where .347... is a representation of a single path along base 10 fractal)

matt grime

"where .347... is a representation of a single path along base 10 fractal"

yep, there's your completely undefined concept again! (what on earth can base ten mean if yo'uve not defined ten as a numeral?)

so once more evasion with bad answers that you probably think are good answers and we're being stupid bodyguards and so on, oh hum, it never ends at this rate: self aggrandising claimants tend not to give in, so I shall.

Lama

It is nice that you ignore my included-middle axiomatic system, and continue to "define" my system according to 0_XOR_1 reasoning.

10 = 0__________10 if 1 = 0_1

Nereid

Thanks Lama, but to be honest I don't know whether to laugh or cry (so I laughed)!

Nuclear proliferation sure is a worry, and some 'worst case scenarios' are truly horrible (e.g. nuclear war between India and Pakistan). However, it's a huge stretch from this to the destruction of life on Earth, or the end of Homo sap., or even the end of a global economy.

For starters, only a possible Chinese superpower could recreate competitors with the ability to destroy Homo sap.; nukes in the hands of others would create regional disasters only.

But a bigger flaw re WMD is the fact that biological WMD are far easier to make, and can be just as devastating as nukes ... and that capability has been with us from well before WW II. Further, that capability was an inevitable consequence of what was arguably the greatest advance in human technology ... the control of infectious diseases.Nice words, but it doesn't answer my question: how does your 'new logic' eliminate the possibility of thoughts of mass murder forming in the mind of a future Pol Pot?

I mean, not only would have have to alter science, but you'd have to extend all religions and ethical principles, and give all such such power as to unequivocably change everyone's motivations.

Since, AFAIK, evil thoughts arise at least somewhat independently of one's education - in anything, not just how to do science - the existence of magic fairy dust logic doesn't help much.

Finally, suppose this 'new logic' could be developed and is as wonderful as you say ... if hugely intelligent and capable folk such as PF members can make neither head nor tail of your ideas, why do you think that little Bertie, with all his learning difficulties, could master it?

Lama

No single method can eliminate the possibility of thoughts of mass murder, it only can reduce its chances to become our reality.

If each person in this planet has a deep understanding which is based on life cherishing, then the chances of the arising of a new Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot are reduced.

My Idea is no more then a one very first step for this goal and it is nothing but one of many other actions that should be made by governments, educational system, organizations, companies, communities and privet persons that have the common goal, which is to care day by day about the existence and moral/technical level of our civilization in order save and develop our life.
The logic that I am talking about is based on the essence of what we are as complex yet simple living things, that REALY try day by day find the best within them in any aspect of their life and then they choose to share it by an open dialog that can give them the ability to express themselves in non-destructive ways.

This internal/external dialog put any one of its participators in a better position that he was before the dialog.

As for my system, I only started to develop the first outlines of it, and it is hard to understood by any parson that believe that there cannot be any connection between morality and exact science methods.

Since I realized that nobody here can grasp my ideas until now, I started to show examples of arithmetical operations, which are based on an included-middle reasoning and also connected to R.


It can be found here: http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...&postcount=155

fbsthreads

if you or anyone else can figure out a new system of maths, then what is to stop terrorists from developing their own system of maths such as the one we have now and use it to there own advantage.

YOU have questioned current maths and want to replace it, but that is just killing the king to become the king yourself.

what is to stop people figuring out that your maths could be replaced by one that doesn't include morals.

i can't believe i'm having to say these words, as even a child could grasp the simple concept the maths and ethics don't go together.

Also have people noticed how Lama only deals with some points in peoples posts and ignores the rest.

I bet if he replies to this he will snip it so that he doesn't have to deal the problem of freethinking i mentioned at the begining of this post.

Lama

Hi fbsthreads,

Please read my post for you at:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...&postcount=149
Since the reasoning that I am talking about is a combination of technical and moral training of the mind, then this kind of reasoning can be our "Athnes" method which can deal with any "Sparta" method and win for life.

We should not leave our destiny in the hands of "Sparta".
If you open your eyes to my work, we will see that there can be a connection between morality and Mathematical reasoning, after all both of them can be found within us, all we have to do is to find the proper methods in order to construct the bridge between them.

Also please read my posts to Nereid in:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...&postcount=148

http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...&postcount=161

Some arithmetic that is based on included-middle reasoning can be found here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...&postcount=155

Alkatran

"Technical and moral training of the mind"

Sounds like brainwashin at its finest. What about the people who don't want to learn? What's to stop them from making their own system, since they can think for themselves.

Nereid

Wow, 163 posts in less than a week! I wish some of my threads were so 'popular'

This is the first time I participated in such a thread, and I can see that several others have had rich experience in discussions with Lama. Now, do I want to repeat the experience? Let's see ...

Alkatran

I remember posts about a certain "push" theory which grew by about 100-200 per day...

Lama

Hi Nereid,

Please look at:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...&postcount=161

Alkatran

The problem is that you can never have everyone understand an idea like that. It just DOESN'T HAPPEN. This is the kind of thinking where communism works (idealistic).

Lama

So, what do you suggesting , to speak about Idealism and do nothing?