The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?


by KingNothing
Tags: birther, crap, movement, racist
russ_watters
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#19
Apr26-11, 10:24 PM
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Quote Quote by lisab View Post
Look, there is *no* comparison between the McCain birth "controversy" and the crazy Obama-is-a-Kenyan birthers. Not even close!
Why not? When you have a major media outlet saying the crackpots are credible, I'd think that would be a pretty big deal. Don't you?
lisab
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#20
Apr26-11, 10:31 PM
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Quote Quote by Al68 View Post
That's a very odd thing to do, which was my point. Are you aware that one can get a "certification of live birth" even if there was never an original birth certificate?

I think Obama was most likely born in Hawaii, but claiming "the debate is over" despite unresolved issues, unanswered questions, and ever-changing stories by officials is suspicious at best.
Did you read the link? What exactly are the unresolved issues that you have?
lisab
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#21
Apr26-11, 10:37 PM
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Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
Why not? When you have a major media outlet saying the crackpots are credible, I'd think that would be a pretty big deal. Don't you?
No one outside of the media gave or gives a rat sass that McCain was born in Panama, it is a complete non issue.

Compare that to the passion and numbers of people who follow the birther movement. It was this one issue that catapulted one play-candidate - Donald Trump, no less - from dabbling with the idea to becoming an actual candidate! That is one powerful issue!

Again: there is *no comparison* between the the McCain "controversy" and the birther movement. Not even close!
KingNothing
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#22
Apr26-11, 10:46 PM
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Quote Quote by Al68 View Post
I think Obama was most likely born in Hawaii, but claiming "the debate is over" despite unresolved issues, unanswered questions, and ever-changing stories by officials is suspicious at best.
Everything that can be produced as evidence has been produced. It's not really fair to say that a birth certificate isn't an acceptable proof of birth.

Quote Quote by Al68 View Post
Plus, Democrats typically use terms like "crazy" and "crackpot" for other people whenever they are trying to obfuscate the truth themselves. That's what has me wondering about this issue.
I think the fact that you see political mud-flinging as a party-specific issue has more to do with you than with the parties themselves.
KingNothing
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#23
Apr26-11, 10:48 PM
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Again, like I said, I don't believe that it was only brought up because of race. But I would contend that Obama's race is a factor in why it has gained so much momentum.
Al68
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#24
Apr26-11, 11:00 PM
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Quote Quote by lisab View Post
Did you read the link? What exactly are the unresolved issues that you have?
Yes, I read the link. I had already read that exact page before I posted in this thread. It makes a lot of assertions, and shows the same scan of the "certification of live birth" that everyone knows about. That link doesn't resolve anything that wasn't already known.

And I've already mentioned a couple of unresolved issues, but you can find more with a little research on the issue.
russ_watters
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#25
Apr26-11, 11:02 PM
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Quote Quote by lisab View Post
No one outside of the media gave or gives a rat sass that McCain was born in Panama, it is a complete non issue.

Compare that to the passion and numbers of people who follow the birther movement.
That is just so not true. As I said before, I'm not going to start linking crackpots, but you really should have a look. There are tons of websites out there still displaying that story. Google it. Please.
KingNothing
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#26
Apr26-11, 11:05 PM
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Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
That is just so not true. As I said before, I'm not going to start linking crackpots, but you really should have a look. There are tons of websites out there still displaying that story. Google it. Please.
I think what lisa is saying, is that the percentage of people who bought into that theory was a lot less than the percentage buying into this theory.
Al68
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#27
Apr26-11, 11:08 PM
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Quote Quote by KingNothing View Post
Everything that can be produced as evidence has been produced.
So you're saying the original (long form) certificate of birth cannot be produced?
It's not really fair to say that a birth certificate isn't an acceptable proof of birth.
One can argue semantics all day, but the document provided is a different document from the one being referred to as unprovided, despite a similar sounding name. I actually have both for myself, but have never used the term "birth certificate" to refer to the short computer printout you can get them to print up at your local state building. Some do, but most are fully aware that it's not the same thing.

But one thing that some birthers are wrong about is the claim that "you can't get into kindergarten with that thing, much less a drivers license". That's simply false. You don't need an actual birth certificate to get a drivers license, a "certification of live birth" printout is fine for that purpose. The reason is simple: it's easy for them to print out from database info, and not everyone's birth is registered at the time. Not having your birth registered immediately doesn't disqualify one from obtaining a drivers license, or running for President. But it means that no actual birth certificate exists, so a certification of live birth is printed up from data provided to the state later, sometimes many years after birth.
I think the fact that you see political mud-flinging as a party-specific issue has more to do with you than with the parties themselves.
Nope, it's the Democratic Party itself. And I wasn't referring to political mud-flinging.
russ_watters
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#28
Apr26-11, 11:19 PM
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Quote Quote by KingNothing View Post
I think what lisa is saying, is that the percentage of people who bought into that theory was a lot less than the percentage buying into this theory.
The story wasn't active long enough for anyone to even take a poll on it - it happened during the election. Then he lost, so it died. But that still means you have no basis for your claim that the percentage of people who bought into it was a lot less. All we can really say for sure is that it got substantial media attention.
Energystrom
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#29
Apr26-11, 11:22 PM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/us...irthermovement

Link to another poll citing 40%+ Republicans still thinking that Barack was not born in the United States. Quote "New York Times/CBS news poll"; I don't think this is the same poll as the one referred to earlier. Wanted to bring this in if anybody was interested.
Office_Shredder
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#30
Apr26-11, 11:29 PM
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Quote Quote by Al68 View Post
Yep, that was the conclusion of the Senate hearing on it: it's too boring to pay attention to.
I know there was a Senate resolution, but I don't know how much effort went into investigating this issue when it was passed. If you have a link you'd like to present that shows there was a serious effort in the Senate to settle the issue I'd appreciate it. Heck, the House passed a resolution which states that Obama was born in Hawaii
Al68
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#31
Apr26-11, 11:36 PM
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Quote Quote by Office_Shredder View Post
I know there was a Senate resolution, but I don't know how much effort went into investigating this issue when it was passed. If you have a link you'd like to present that shows there was a serious effort in the Senate to settle the issue I'd appreciate it.
There wasn't much effort to settle it because it didn't need much effort. Being born on U.S. territory is "natural born", even if not in one of the states. There was no other issue in dispute.
Heck, the House passed a resolution which states that Obama was born in Hawaii
Whether Obama was born in Hawaii is a factual, not a legal, issue. The McCain issue was a legal, not a factual, issue. The facts were not in dispute, obviously negating the need for an investigation of facts.
KingNothing
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#32
Apr27-11, 12:18 AM
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Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
But that still means you have no basis for your claim that the percentage of people who bought into it was a lot less. All we can really say for sure is that it got substantial media attention.
You know, it's pretty frustrating when I can't try to clarify what another member is saying without being "called out". I didn't make any such claim, and I don't appreciate the accusation that I did.
Office_Shredder
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#33
Apr27-11, 12:20 AM
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Quote Quote by Al68 View Post
There wasn't much effort to settle it because it didn't need much effort. Being born on U.S. territory is "natural born", even if not in one of the states. There was no other issue in dispute.Whether Obama was born in Hawaii is a factual, not a legal, issue. The McCain issue was a legal, not a factual, issue. The facts were not in dispute, obviously negating the need for an investigation of facts.
A legal question on what the definition of natural born is requires researching and discussing what the definition of the words are. There are people who say that even if Obama was born in Kenya, he's a natural born citizen by being born to an American citizen. It seems to me that the McCain question is much harder to settle than the Obama one in principle
KingNothing
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#34
Apr27-11, 12:26 AM
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I personally believe that both instances were just pathetic political maneuvers and nothing more. I think John McCain and Barack Obama both had every right to become president.

The point of this thread was to discuss whether or not racism plays some part in this. I believe it does. It is a lot easier to accuse a part-black man with a foreign-sounding name of such a thing than a white-skinned man with a more American name, and to have the accusation gain momentum.
ParticleGrl
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#35
Apr27-11, 12:39 AM
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Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
That's MSNBC!, the liberal answer to Fox, forwarding the anti-McCain crackpottery as if it could possibly have had some merit. I suppose they could just be a bunch of black racists, but I'm thinking no...just run-of-the-mill crackpots.
There is a slight difference- McCain really was born outside the US in the canal zone, which really did lead some legal scholars to question his eligibility. In a very wise move, the senate did pass a resolution affirming his natural born citizenship. No conspiracy theory, a minor issue about definition of natural-born-citizen, resolved by the senate almost instantly.

Whereas Obama was born in Hawaii. Anyone with a functioning brain knows Obama was born in Hawaii. The conspiracy (like all conspiracy theories) isn't about facts, it flies in the face of the facts.
Al68
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#36
Apr27-11, 12:45 AM
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Quote Quote by Office_Shredder View Post
A legal question on what the definition of natural born is requires researching and discussing what the definition of the words are. There are people who say that even if Obama was born in Kenya, he's a natural born citizen by being born to an American citizen. It seems to me that the McCain question is much harder to settle than the Obama one in principle
Researching the McCain legal question should take but a few minutes. It's pretty easy to determine that "natural born citizen" means citizen by virtue of birth instead of by the naturalization process. What else could it mean?


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