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Where is the center of the universe?

 
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Feb7-12, 01:50 PM   #137
 

Where is the center of the universe?


Greylorn Re:
Wherever we start can be fairly regarded as an hypothesis. Whether an hypothesis becomes the core of effective physical understanding, or the basic dogma of another religion, depends upon what we do with it.

If we can derive it mathematically from a bit of observational evidence, and test it empirically, then it's usually science. If it predicts something we'd otherwise not have known, then it is almost certainly science.

But if we insist that an hypothesis came inscribed on golden tablets, since removed to heaven, and cannot possibly test it, then it's religion.

If we wake up some morning suddenly knowing the secrets pf the universe, and wrap a bunch of coherent polysyllabic words around our notions but never bother to test any assumptions or trouble ourselves with predictions, we've got another philosophy.

IMO BB theory is in the neverland of what I'd call, physical theology. While derived by scientists, it lacks some properties which we normally associate with sound science. Moreover, the Big Bang's mysterious precursor shares more characteristics with the God of Christianity than with any known physical phenomenon. (Mysterious or non-existent origin, containing/creating all matter and energy, yet doing so without credible cause or purpose.)

Something's not right with BB theory.
I have had similar misgivings, perhaps because the BB theory isnt even complete yet? Also there is always going to be one more level of cause and effect. e.g. what caused the Branes that caused the BB? etc. Saying that however, it is still good to learn as much as possible about each of these steps regardless.

I have also had similar problems with near infinite universe size then, as well as near infinite universe size now, and yet the creation event is supposed to be a quantum event which I associate with things so small that their position and momentum cant even be accurately determined. I very much suspect I need to learn a lot more about this.

Cosmologists are trying to explain the observations that have been made and then they extrapolate as far back as they can from these observations. The further they extrapolate the more speculative they become, and we could perhaps sometimes do with more information from them regarding just how speculative they are being.


As to how the laws of nature came about, that would be the real question in my mind.
Yes, thats one of them. As for why, well perhaps "The Truman show" helps answer that? :)
Heaven for a Cosmologist, me included, would likely be a place where they could learn the answers to all these questions.
 
Feb7-12, 09:57 PM   #138
 
Quote by Greylorn View Post
But if we insist that an hypothesis came inscribed on golden tablets, since removed to heaven, and cannot possibly test it, then it's religion.
Interesting in my view the turning point in man's evolution may be the sun god - the corona. Four footed creatures, when the skies turned dark, probably thought it was time for a nap. But some bipeds looked up and saw the corona and the only way they could interpret it was as a sun god. This earth-moon-sun geometry may be essential for the evolution of man. If the geometry was off by maybe 3% the bipeds may have never bothered to lookup and begin to wonder. And so now we build telescopes and still wonder. Point being science may owe it all to some form of mystery.
 
Feb8-12, 12:13 AM   #139
 
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Quote by ynot1 View Post
Interesting in my view the turning point in man's evolution may be the sun god - the corona. Four footed creatures, when the skies turned dark, probably thought it was time for a nap. But some bipeds looked up and saw the corona and the only way they could interpret it was as a sun god. This earth-moon-sun geometry may be essential for the evolution of man. If the geometry was off by maybe 3% the bipeds may have never bothered to lookup and begin to wonder. And so now we build telescopes and still wonder. Point being science may owe it all to some form of mystery.
Unlikely. Solar eclipses are so rare for any spot on the surface and the Sun itself is so important to everyday life that it is much more likely that a Sun God was made just out of a need to try to explain what the Sun was. In any case science is 100% about finding out the "mystery" of the universe and explaining it using the scientific method.
 
Feb8-12, 07:53 AM   #140
 
Quote by Drakkith View Post
Unlikely. Solar eclipses are so rare for any spot on the surface and the Sun itself is so important to everyday life that it is much more likely that a Sun God was made just out of a need to try to explain what the Sun was. In any case science is 100% about finding out the "mystery" of the universe and explaining it using the scientific method.
Could be but note rarity is an essential part of the mystery. It separates the believers from the unbelievers. Nobody is really surprised when the sun comes up in the morning.
 
Feb8-12, 08:39 AM   #141
 
Quote by salvestrom View Post
Hmm. Reading thru the wikipedia page on antimatter the most straightforward disproof of them travelling backward in time is that scientist create billions of them these days and we can see them. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to be able to see something moving backward in time (a trait attached to tachyons).
Point being nothing could be created moving backwards in time because it would then have to be immediately destroyed. Feynman says somewhere that time reversibility is possible on the macro scale but improbable. So perhaps when you reverse time events happen in a more probabilistic fashion. You might say quantum uncertainty takes over and precludes events from recurring precisely as they occurred initially. Most physical laws allow time reversibility but I don't think time reversibility is applicable on the quantum scale. Maybe this has something to do with CP violation but that stuff is way over my paygrade.
 
Feb8-12, 02:44 PM   #142
 
Quote by ynot1 View Post
Most physical laws allow time reversibility
Do they? Although any physical reaction can be modelled backward as well as it can be forward, I'm not sure saying 'allowed' is accurate. The laws of physics are mathematical descriptions, not facilitators. The question isn't can we model two planets uncolliding (sure we can), it is: can two planets uncollide?
 
Feb8-12, 03:52 PM   #143
 
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Quote by ynot1 View Post
Could be but note rarity is an essential part of the mystery. It separates the believers from the unbelievers. Nobody is really surprised when the sun comes up in the morning.
I don't see it quite that way, but I won't elaborate further as it would be pretty far off topic.

Quote by Tanelorn View Post
Greylorn Re:

I have had similar misgivings, perhaps because the BB theory isnt even complete yet? Also there is always going to be one more level of cause and effect. e.g. what caused the Branes that caused the BB? etc. Saying that however, it is still good to learn as much as possible about each of these steps regardless.
I'm not sure what you mean by "complete". There are limitations with ALL theories. One of the main ones with the BB theory is that it stops working past a certain point in the past near the "Big Bang".
 
Feb8-12, 04:33 PM   #144
 
Quote by salvestrom View Post
Do they? Although any physical reaction can be modelled backward as well as it can be forward, I'm not sure saying 'allowed' is accurate. The laws of physics are mathematical descriptions, not facilitators. The question isn't can we model two planets uncolliding (sure we can), it is: can two planets uncollide?
Yes, per Feynman, although the probability of such an event is pretty remote.
 
Feb8-12, 09:05 PM   #145
 
Quote by ynot1 View Post
Yes, per Feynman, although the probability of such an event is pretty remote.
"Do they?" was rhetorical sarcasm over your use of the word "allow".
 
Feb8-12, 09:20 PM   #146
 
Quote by salvestrom View Post
"Do they?" was rhetorical sarcasm over your use of the word "allow".
I would say he has used the word correctly, and agree with his statement.
 
Feb8-12, 10:12 PM   #147
 
Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
I would say he has used the word correctly, and agree with his statement.
Correct useage or not, I find the use of the word interesting.
 
Feb9-12, 11:12 AM   #148
 
I am just putting what my thoughts are
since all finite matter has a center and the universe is finite, that it must have a defined center even if you are on a lake and look around and cant see the shore as a frame of referance, the lake still has a center. Our inablity to find the center does not mean that the center does not exist. If the universe does not have a center then it cannot be finite.
 
Feb9-12, 12:05 PM   #149
 
Quote by rglong View Post
If the universe does not have a center then it cannot be finite.
So where would you find the center of an infinite universe, if such a thing exists? Or did I miss something?
 
Feb9-12, 12:19 PM   #150
 
Quote by rglong View Post
I am just putting what my thoughts are
since all finite matter has a center and the universe is finite, that it must have a defined center even if you are on a lake and look around and cant see the shore as a frame of referance, the lake still has a center. Our inablity to find the center does not mean that the center does not exist. If the universe does not have a center then it cannot be finite.
This is not at all true.

You are standing on the surface of the Earth - a 2-dimensional plane with a finite area. Where is the centre of the Earth's surface?
 
Feb9-12, 01:28 PM   #151
 
Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
This is not at all true.

You are standing on the surface of the Earth - a 2-dimensional plane with a finite area. Where is the centre of the Earth's surface?
would it be that there is no center or that every point is the center? Or is there a difference between those two?
 
Feb9-12, 01:32 PM   #152
 
The center of the Earth's surface is not the center of the Earth as a whole. A solid 3-d shape like the Universe does have a center. And the center of the Earth's surface could be said to have infinite centers as each point can be reached by going around the Earth, and the path you follow has a midpoint. But as I said, the Earth does have a center. Also, the surface of the Earth can not be made into a 2-d shape, the surface of the Earth is also a sphere and the center of the spheres mass would be at the center of the sphere. If you laid the Earth out flat, then it would have a defined center since you would have to chose a latitude or longitude to define as the edge, no matter where you cut a globe and lay it out, you will end up with a center.
 
Feb9-12, 01:36 PM   #153
 
Quote by SHISHKABOB View Post
would it be that there is no center or that every point is the center? Or is there a difference between those two?
If you view it at a single point, the center would be the opposite pole to you. If you did it for every point on a sphere, there would be infinite centers on the sphere.
 
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