Alternative medicine

Evo

Quote by Aidyan

I do not favor at all alternative medicines, but am an 'atheist' of conventional medicine too. I think that 80% of doctors thinking comes from an ideological and cultural background, not from a sound scientific reasoning. When I was young and decided to become vegetarian I could here lots of doctors telling me how dangerous it is, science shows that... Today a balanced vegetarian diet is accepted by almost every nutritionist. But now I'm vegan too, and again lots panic when I tell this. Despite the fact that there is today sufficient scientific evidence that shows how this is perfectly possible and reasonable, most physicians got stuck in their ideology and continue to repeat an old song. I don't believe in or practice any alternative medicine, if not a form of self-healing of my own, but I deeply mistrust the medical mind set based on fear and a superficial view of mind and body. Most of the things I got to hear from them turned out to be simply wrong, that had nothing to do with critical thinking but is based on a belief system which is the alter ego of that of alternative medicines. And friends of mine who are so worried about my health however are regularly ill for some reason or another and have to visit doctors one or more times a year. Me it is 25 years now that I don't step into a doctor's studio and am perfectly fine. I think it is quite natural that people become skeptical. It is perhaps not so much that alternative medicines are gaining ground, but the allopathic one is loosing it. And not without good reasons.

I'm sure that doctors vary from country to country. In the US, where I am, I would say doctors are more in line with current medical science.

You do know that a vegan diet is not healthy/sustainable without supplements, either separately, or pre-added to the food by the manufacturer. I prefer to get my nutrients naturally by eating a balanced, healthy diet.

Aidyan

Quote by Evo

You do know that a vegan diet is not healthy/sustainable without supplements, either separately, or pre-added to the food by the manufacturer. I prefer to get my nutrients naturally by eating a balanced, healthy diet.

Every diet, if not balanced isn't healthy/sustainable. It is a general rule. And when it is, the only supplement a vegan should take care of is the B12 vitamin. Apart from that there is nothing that vegetables, legumes, cereals and fruits, can't supplement. And they do it even more 'naturally'.

nitsuj

Quote by wuliheron

Some 80% of all research today is done by corporations, another 10% by governments, and only the remainder is done by universities and private institutions. The idea that science is some sort of abstract practice divorced from big business and governments, which in the US are very intimate bedfellows, is laughable.

Oh snap, nice retort.

I wonder if the research directives come from the marketing department for that 80%.

Evo

Quote by Aidyan

And they do it even more 'naturally'.

Natural for a human? No.

WiFO215

As a follow up to that article, the Economist hosted this poll where they asked the readers whether alternative medicine ought to be taught in schools. A disparagingly large number voted 'yes'. 46%! Count it! 46!

Now I don't understand why so many would have voted yes and am trying to rationalize. Maybe they want to teach them 'the other side' so that they know why it's wrong? Maybe to see if they can pick up on these other aspects such as inquiring about the patients' health so that they (the patients) are more relaxed in the doctor's office?

Ryan_m_b

Quote by WiFO215

As a follow up to that article, the Economist hosted this poll where they asked the readers whether alternative medicine ought to be taught in schools. A disparagingly large number voted 'yes'. 46%! Count it! 46!

Now I don't understand why so many would have voted yes and am trying to rationalize. Maybe they want to teach them 'the other side' so that they know why it's wrong? Maybe to see if they can pick up on these other aspects such as inquiring about the patients' health so that they (the patients) are more relaxed in the doctor's office?

I honestly think the majority of people are just misinformed. There's nothing malicious about it, it's a failing of the education system and of market regulation. Think about it: big name pharmacies have aisles for alternative medicines, there are high street/mall "health" shops specialising them, TV adverts for them, celebraties endorsing them and precious few scientists and public officials working to counter the spread of pseudo-science. From a laymans point of view alternative medicines are medicines and though they may acknowledge there is some sort of difference between them and medicines that doctors perscribe they may not know what it is nor care.

To really combat the spread of alternative medicines there has to be an initiative at government level to increase education in both basic science (as in scientific method rather than the facts science has so far determined), increase education in identifying/analysing and debunking pseudo-science and cracking down on the sale of products with questionable claims. The latter is hard because whilst there is regulation there many products that get round it by never explicitly stating a false claim e.g. "Chemical X is necessary for producing thicker, healthier hair. Product Pro-X+ is rich in natural chemical X" This kind of thing is rife in advertising and leaves the viewer to infer that Product Pro-X+ produces thicker healthier hair because of chemical X even though the company has never stated that.

Aidyan

Quote by Evo

Natural for a human? No.

An ideological statement without sound scientific arguments. And what means 'natural'? At any rate, modern meat based diet coming from large scale industrialized intensive livestock farmings hardly can be defined as 'natural'.

Dembadon

Quote by Aidyan

An ideological statement without sound scientific arguments. And what means 'natural'? At any rate, modern meat based diet coming from large scale industrialized intensive livestock farmings hardly can be defined as 'natural'.

No such claim has been made. One does not have to purchase the meat of animals raised in feedlots. "Grass-fed" options are becoming increasingly available.

Dembadon

This thread reminded me of a youtube series I found a couple years ago:

These videos should be required material in high school. Watch the whole series; I was baffled at some of the responses to Mr. Dawkins's questions.

There is another video by James Randi (love this man) in which he points out the absurdity of homeopathic methods and reasoning. See below:

Aidyan

Quote by Dembadon

No such claim has been made. One does not have to purchase the meat of animals raised in feedlots. "Grass-fed" options are becoming increasingly available.

Grass-fed cattle farms make up no more than few per cent, and that will hardly change much, because cows without growth hormones grow too slowly and they need enormous amounts of grassland compared to factory farming. Most of the meat on the market must be "unnatural", because otherwise the system would collapse for simple financial and environmental reasons. The idea of the happy cow that will become healthy meat for everyone is only a romantic ideal that has no rational base in reality.

BWV

there is no such thing as alternative medicine, because if there was reliable evidence of any "alternative" treatment's effectiveness it would be real medicine

Evo

Quote by Aidyan

An ideological statement without sound scientific arguments. And what means 'natural'? At any rate, modern meat based diet coming from large scale industrialized intensive livestock farmings hardly can be defined as 'natural'.

If you were suggesting that a diet with no meat was more natural. Not for humans.

Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet

It was this new meat diet, full of densely-packed nutrients, that provided the catalyst for human evolution, particularly the growth of the brain, said Katharine Milton, an authority on primate diet.

Without meat, said Milton, it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became.

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/relea...-14-1999a.html

Quote by Aidyan

Every diet, if not balanced isn't healthy/sustainable. It is a general rule. And when it is, the only supplement a vegan should take care of is the B12 vitamin.

Vegan diets tend to be deficient in iron, B12, calcium, vitamin D, essential fatty acids, and essential amino acids. It’s possible to get these nutrients in a vegan diet if well planned and if supplements are used.

Quote by Aidyan

Apart from that there is nothing that vegetables, legumes, cereals and fruits, can't supplement. And they do it even more 'naturally'.

Anyway, this is off topic. Please return to discussing alternative medicine.

Monique

Quote by Evo

Anyway, this is off topic. Please return to discussing alternative medicine.

Suggestion: lead by example?

For the people in this thread discussing alternative medicine: you should be aware that the placebo effect can have a major effect on a person's well-being. Physicians should realize this and apply it in their clinic. Not to cure their patients with sugar pills, but to augment existing therapies. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21576150

Alternative medicine can exist besides the clinical medicine, but it should not replace it.

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Dembadon Recognitions: Gold Member	This thread reminded me of a youtube series I found a couple years ago: These videos should be required material in high school. Watch the whole series; I was baffled at some of the responses to Mr. Dawkins's questions. There is another video by James Randi (love this man) in which he points out the absurdity of homeopathic methods and reasoning. See below: