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Does the Milky have a QSO? What is the observational evidence concerning QSOs? |
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| Aug10-12, 11:41 PM | #1 |
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Does the Milky have a QSO? What is the observational evidence concerning QSOs?
There is a confusing article in the August, 2012 Scientific America concerning the recent discovery of a massive gamma radiation emission from the Milky Way galaxy, from the very recent past. As our solar system is one of the many members of the Milky Way this is an interesting subject.
If viewed from a distance galaxy, say M31, this massive gamma radiation emission would appear to be a Quasar, a QSO, a quasi-stellar object. As there are no QSOs in the local universe this presents an interesting puzzle. Why are there no QSOs in the local universe and how the heck can there be a QSO in the Milky Way? To have an intelligent conversation concerning the Milky Way's hypothesized QSO it is necessary to review the observational evidence concerning QSOs. i.e. One can compare the toy model for QSOs to the observations and see if the observations match what is observed. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1205.5852v1.pdf |
| Aug11-12, 12:06 AM | #2 |
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I believe it is generally expected that the nuclei of galaxies become active when they first form, and when the galaxy undergoes a large disruption such as a merger with another galaxy. And by the way, there are quite a few AGN's that are relatively close-by. The nearest is the nucleus of Centaurus-A, a mere 10-16 million light years away. |
| Aug11-12, 04:41 AM | #3 |
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Centaurus-A is also a gamma emitting AGN and is located 10 to 16 million light years away. Very high energy gamma-rays from the radio galaxy Centaurus A http://www.obspm.fr/actual/nouvelle/mar09/cena-f1.jpg http://www.obspm.fr/actual/nouvelle/mar09/cena.en.shtml |
| Oct7-12, 09:13 PM | #4 |
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Does the Milky have a QSO? What is the observational evidence concerning QSOs?
These are the papers I was thinking of. High luminosity quasars are no longer found in the local universe. This was assumed to be due to a difference in the feeding of the quasar due to a change in the environment from high redshift to the present.
As these two papers indicate. That belief is not correct. The super massive black holes that power Quasars have down sized. At high redshift the most massive super massive BH is roughly 10^10 solar masses. In the local universe the most massive super massive black hole is 10^7 solar masses. Our Milky Way super massive black holes is a growing baby massive object with an estimated mass of 3.6 10^6 solar masses. It is interesting how our Milky Way super massive black hole and the other super massive BH holes in the local universe reach their plateau. As this paper notes, as high redshift quasars must be very distant objects as they have high redshifts, then they must have a very massive super massive BH to produce the extraordinary high luminosity. Those super large BH disappear and are no longer found in the local universe. The spectral emissions of the Quasar curiously does not evolve with redshift. As this paper notes, the authors of the paper do not know of any mechanism by which a super massive BH can lose significant mass, yet it appears based on observations that must have lost mass based on the assumptions and observations. http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.3151v1 |
| Oct7-12, 09:41 PM | #5 |
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1. Selection: extremely massive black holes are going to be most visible when they are most luminous, i.e. at high redshift. 2. Volume: there is vastly more observable universe at high redshift than at low redshift, so that any exceptional regions in the universe are more likely to be at high redshift than low redshift. |
| Oct7-12, 11:29 PM | #6 |
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The explanation is not selection. The mass of the central galactic BH can also be estimated by the size of the spiral galaxy bulge as there is a tight relation of the size of the spiral galaxy bulge to the mass of the central BH. The anomaly is not only that high redshift quasars are more luminous. The galaxy central BH get smaller with redshift (10^10 solar masses down to 10^7 solar masses). Downsizing of the central galaxy BH mass with redshift is anomalous, as there is no known mechanism by which a BH can lose significant mass. i.e. A 10^10 solar mass BH that formed at high redshift should be 10^10 or larger at in the local universe which is not observed. The 10^10 solar mass BH downsizes to 10^7 solar masses. As the paper notes the spectral energy distribution of the quasar does not change with redshift which is also curious. Metallicity also does not change with redshift which is also anomalous. One would expect metallicity should decrease with redshift. It does not. http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.3151v1 |
| Oct8-12, 08:23 AM | #7 |
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And these statements also don't surprise me at all, considering that AGN's aren't going to form until there's been a good amount of star formation in the area first. |
| Oct8-12, 10:55 AM | #8 |
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The X-ray spectrum of QSOs shows a very simple spectral shape in the form of a power law, S υ = υ^- α where α≈ 0.7. The pattern of the QSO spectral energy distribution vs frequency is how Hawkins has able to show that QSOs do not show time dilation with redshift. This is the third paper that Hawkins has published that shows that QSOs do not show time dilation with redshift. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...581.x/abstract http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1824 One of the quasar puzzles is how to generate jets, x-rays and gamma radiation that has spectral energy vs frequency that follows a power law, from an accreting disk and how to get the jet, x-ray and gamma radiation mechanism to turn on and off. There appears to be connected, structured anomalies concerning the explanation of what is observed in this picture. http://www.obspm.fr/actual/nouvelle/mar09/cena.en.shtml This thread starts with the observation that the Milky Way super massive BH in the very recent past created gamma ray excited jets similar to this picture. The puzzle is the Milky Way is not merging with another galaxy. Why would the Milky Way in the recent past produce gamma ray exited jets? http://arxiv.org/pdf/1205.5852v1.pdf As the Chandra x-ray paper notes the quasar x-ray spectrum does not evolve with redshift. The following is Kundt’s thoughts has to how to generate x-ray and gamma radiation that follows a power law. |
| Oct8-12, 11:31 AM | #9 |
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https://www.google.com/search?q=quas...w=1199&bih=626 |
| Oct9-12, 12:11 AM | #10 |
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A quasar is just an early phase of a normal galaxy. I don't see the mystery. |
| Oct9-12, 12:20 AM | #11 |
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2) I'd be extremely skeptical at extrapolating relations from one set of galaxies to another. If you can show references that show that there is a relationship between one set of galaxies, there's no particular reason why it should apply to early quasars. |
| Oct9-12, 12:31 AM | #12 |
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2) Black holes can generate rotating magnetic fields. 3) What you are describing is pretty standard. One thing that we are finding is that there is a lot of shared physics. You have a gravitational object, you dump stuff into that object. That object then emits jets and disks. You then have basically the same physics whether the central object is a star, a white dwarf, a neutron star, a stellar sized black hole, or a mega-black hole. All of this stuff is "standard day at the office" stuff, and I'm not seeing where the mystery is. |
| Oct9-12, 02:15 AM | #13 |
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One other thing is that journal papers are terrible for trying to background knowledge. Journal articles assume that you already know the background for the thing that they are talking about.
The standard textbook for this sort of thing is.... http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowledg...e_locale=en_GB Also, I'm sure that is some good review paper out there that describes what the current state of research is, and if someone can point me do it, I'd be appreciative. |
| Oct12-12, 05:16 PM | #14 |
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Look at the SMBH mass' variance with redshift. Observationally it has been found that SMBH mass have a maximum mass at high redshift of 10^10 solar masses. The SMBH mass starts to down size at around z=2.5 and in the local universe the most massive SMBH is 10^7 solar masses. The question to answer is where did the SMBH mass go? (i.e. The galaxies we are observing at z less than 2.5 were formed when the universe was formed also.) SMBHs cannot based on their assumed nature loss significant mass. A related issue is why do quasars' spectrum not exhibit time dilation with redshift? Super nova exhibit time dilation with redshift. (Could someone explain time dilation and why is occurs in the standard cosmological model, i.e. an expanding universe.) As this paper also notes there are quasars with a SMBH mass of 10^10 solar masses 1 billion years after the formation of the universe. A basic back of the envelop calculation indicates even with accretion at the maximum theoretically possible that is not possible. http://arxiv.org/pdf/0902.3151v1.pdf See page 9 of the above paper link that has a copy of the graph from Vestergaard et al 2008 which from shows the SMBH (super massive Black hole) mass downsizes with redshift from 10^10 solar masses to 10^7 solar masses in the local universe. SMBH are not in allowed in the standard model to loss significant mass. Observationally, however, they do. FIGURE 4. (Estimated) mass distribution of 14,584 quasar central engines (CEs) with z ≥ 0.2, as functions of redshift z, from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey Data Release 3, within an effective sky area of 1644 deg2, taken from Vestergaard et al (2008). Squares denote median masses in each redshift bin. The dashed curve indicates faint SDSS flux limits. The AGN bulge scales at roughly 10^-3 to the SMBH mass. The better relationship SMBH mass to the velocity distribution of the AGN bulge. |
| Oct12-12, 10:36 PM | #15 |
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The observation that the quasar spectrum does not exhibit time dilation with redshift appears to be a paradox. The following is the third paper published by Hawkins which supports that conclusion. The paper includes possible solutions to solve the paradox.
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1824 This is the link to the 2001 paper that noted that quasars do not exhibit time dilation. http://arxiv.org/abs/1009.3265v2 |
| Oct13-12, 08:14 AM | #16 |
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| Oct13-12, 01:43 PM | #17 |
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Perhaps my links were not correct. The following is a complete set of links both to the pre-print and to the published papers. Hawkins is a quasar specialist. It seems he has proven unequivocally that quasars do not exhibit time dilation. That appears to be a paradox. It is interesting to look at the downsizing of the quasar SMBH from high redshift where they are 10^10 solar masses to low redshift where they are 10^7 solar masses and to simultaneously think about the observation that quasars do not exhibit time dilation. There are two connected paradoxes. The lack of any redshift evolution of metallicity in the quasar spectrum is a third paradox. The inability to form a 10^10 solar mass SMBH when the universe was only 800 million years old is a fourth paradox. It is very, very, unusual for a field of science that has sets of connected paradoxes in published papers. The quality of analysis of the observational data due to multi spectral analysis and surveys is outstanding in this field. It appears all or most of the observational data and analysis required to solve the problem is available. It is very, very, rare that a researcher has an opportunity to make multiple breakthroughs. It is truly astonishing that someone has not written a review paper that connects the paradoxical observations as a set laying out the completing logical paths. The observations (see other thread this forum) indicate that quasars are not turned on by mergers. Our own galaxy SMBH has turned on in the very recent past. Both of those observations indicate a galaxy's SMBH can turn on at all redshifts (The reason why SMBH are turning on is not known and needs an explanation.) The paradox (for the current quasar mechanism) is there are no observed 10^10 solar mass SMBH less than z=2. The SMBH mass can be determined both by luminosity of the quasar and by the velocity distribution of the AGN's bulge stars. The standard model for BHs does not allow the SMBH to lose significant mass. This is a link to the published 2001 paper. http://iopscience.iop.org/1538-4357/...5104.text.html This is a link to the preprint of the published 2010 paper. http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1824 This the link to the published 2010 paper. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...581.x/abstract |
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