College drop out, Good choice educationally?

Mépris

Would it be reasonable for one to skip out of a certain course, and take the more advanced variant, if one were to have studied the prerequisite on one's own?

Say, one studying intermediate E&M with Griffiths' book, and then taking the course that uses Jackson's? Or studying from one of/a combination of the books by Kittel, Morin, and Klepper & Kolenkow, and then taking the more advanced classical mechanics class which uses the text by Goldstein?

ZombieFeynman

As someone who has taken year long courses from Jackson and Goldstein, this is foolish. These problem sets give graduate students nightmares after theyve taken the course. Jackson crushes souls. I enjoyed the experience, but i benefitted from each and every gram of preparation. The gap between Kleppner and Kolenkow and Goldstein is enormous. Do not do this.

To the OP, your idea is foolhardy.

coalquay404

Unless there's a very good reason for it, seeing that a student has taken longer than usual to complete his/her degree is already a red flag; seeing that it was for a patently ridiculous idea like the one you're proposing is enough to get your application binned.

I know that you don't want to hear this, but that's just the way it is. Graduate applications committees already have far more applications from outstanding students than there are places. Often, a not inconsiderable portion of a department's funding is tied to completion rates of graduate programmes as well as the impact of graduate students' publications. I simply wouldn't take the risk of recommending that your application be accepted if you were to think that going off into the wilderness for a few years is sufficient preparation for a graduate programme.

WannabeNewton

Funny you should mention that because I did kleppner and morin on my own before entering uni and, with AP credit, skipped to intermediate mechanics and, while the primary text is taylor, they also give problems from goldstein when possible (variational principle, rigid body kinematics, oscillations chs for example) and I can't say I've found those problems to be as hard as the ones in kleppner (and the problems in taylor are a joke compared to the ones in kleppner for overlap subjects). The class has been very fine so far so I don't know how much of a gamble it is but here I have met many other freshmen taking intermediate mechanics as well so it is very common from what I have seen. I think in general ; however, a class that uses goldstein as the primary text tends to be a beginning graduate class in the US and requires you to have taken intermediate mechanics first.

Choppy

As others have already pointed out those are reserved for extreme circumstances such as already having a publication record in the field. An applicant who can't be bothered to take undergraduate classes does not fit the bill.

In contrast to coalquay404's commet, I think taking a year off is just fine. Lot's of successful applicants do this for an array of reasons (health, financial burden, travel, "finding oneself", etc.) and I think that's perfectly acceptable. I'd rather have a graduate student who's already done that and is now committed to his or her work than one who hasn't but needs to.

Finally, I would point out that lectures are only part of the university experience. Consider:
- labs
- making friends in the field
- making friends outside of the field
- networking opportunities
- colloquia
- clubs and teams
- library access to journals

One more thought....part of your plan appears to be assuming that you're going to find professors willing to work with or mentor you if you drop out. I can't speak for ALL professors, but mentoring an undergraduate student is not the most lucrative activity. I'd have to have a pretty strong reason to mentor someone who is not even an undergrad student.

meanrev

I know it's hard to take the advice from so many people who *did* their undergraduate degrees, so perhaps I'll chip in from a drop-out's perspective. I was in a similar position, felt that at today's day and age, I was learning more from buying the reference material and referring to online resources than actually paying for the coursework. I withdrew at the end of sophomore year, with plans to return to finish my BSc and proceed with my PhD after my financial situation has stabilized.

Would I recommend this to you?

Not in your circumstances. I'd suggest you just pick up the pace and finish up your degree. You don't have any pressing financial situations, and everything seems smooth-sailing from your description.

There are many things you have to consider, and many alternatives ways to challenge or stimulate yourself during your time in college that you must think of:

- Most important question to ask yourself: Can it be done? As others in this thread have already pointed out, the fact that your goal of leaving college is to go to graduate school is highly self-contradictory and counter-productive. On the other hand, I left college so I could do a desk job, less counter-productivity there.

- Getting family and social support for your decision. I think this was the hardest step for me, and it was exceptionally hard because all of my nearest friends/relatives, and as a result, my 2nd degree of contacts, come from exceptional academic backgrounds. You sound like a talented individual, and the more you are one, the harder it will be to stomach awkward situations where you have to explain in a social meeting what you do (at least during the time before you have eked out success outside of college). I don't think anyone can do it.

- The loss of valuable resources. The student status is incredibly powerful, lets you get away with lots of stuff, participate in lots of things. Especially software licenses, guest lectures, networking events, conferences, and thoroughly enjoyable competitions; I did the Putnam, MCM IMC and so on while I was in college, and still wish I can. (I missed out on this year's ACM and ICFP in the process.) These perks were monumental in shaping my life; the whole reason I took this plunge was out of mere coincidence that I took part in one of the Joint Mathematics Meetings, which helped me find my passion.

- Other things you can do. If the coursework feels trivial to you, just take the classes that challenge you and align more closely with your true interests. Also, find a way to avoid taking the required coursework, either by easing through it with transfer credits and doing them at another accredited institution where it's cheaper. I changed my mind about feeling that I could learn more by myself than at college after I actually spent a whole half a year outside, learning on my own. There are many tiny pieces of wisdom passed on during lectures that would take you weeks, if not forever, to uncover on your own. I don't know about medicine, but this is particularly true in quantitative finance (where I am involved in now).

- Networks. Having professors more intelligent and experienced than myself was something I took hugely for granted. If I had stayed on longer, I would definitely have spent more time getting to know more of them, because many times now I wish I could just ask professor A who was teaching course A' how to solve a problem that I'm facing. Something esoteric like programming a FPGA is an easy skill to find in a university, but really hard to find outside of it. Except in the outside world, you're the consultant's wet dream; it will cost $. In university, you can get away with a casually-worded email to a professor. Moreover, college is a great place to find other philosophically-burnt-out undergrad or grad students like yourself (or myself), who are great source of free labor and companionship. I lost touch with many of them since leaving college, and the growth of my networks has since declined. I had this disgusting overconfidence that I couldn't find the people I needed to solve the problems I had to deal with, but the truth is, everyone in college is equally as talented as you are, and you can always find a way to leverage their specializations to your advantage - be it to pick up a needed skill, or to write/review a small body of code in a language that you are unfamiliar with.

JonDrew

My original plan was to do a chemistry major along with my physics major, I still plan on getting a chem. minor too, I almost have it complete. I don't know what year student you are but what chem. classes have you taken or do suggest taking?.

Have you done any research yet? did you like it? dislike it?

Your major sounds B.ad A.ss, mine is a bunch of B.S. though. heh

JonDrew

Thank you for the thoughtful post, It is really contributing to my decision. But A large part of my frustration is that those little "insight's" you get in lectures are not coming from my lectures nearly as much as they are coming from time spent watching OpenCourseware's. Not to sound bashful but, I know relativity better than my physics professor and repetitively I feel like "come on, I am paying for this!" while these other more insightful lectures are free.

I don't know how many OCW's are offer for quantitative finance but I can venture a guess that it is very few, I can see this making your self-education very difficult but physics lectures are abundant and all over the internet, for free. I really feel that I am already learning the material on my own so I am saying "hey, why not just learn it on my own then."

Your right I would miss out on a lot of college experiences but I would also gain a few by returning home to continue my studies, I still have strong relationships with people who are very good influences upon me back home (not just Mom and Dad), so there is a give and take to that argument.

I have actually already talked this over with my parents about a week ago, they were apprehensive but very supportive, they know I have never enjoyed formal education. (They were the ones who watched me grow up as the youngster who refused to get on the school bus in the morning.) Personally I think this is the future of education, I really almost view it as taking a step in the self education direction before the rest of the world does.

The only thing is though, the rest of the world hasn't done it, and thats why I think it seems so bizarre on the surface.

ZombieFeynman

I doubt that you know relativity better than your professor.

Keep in mind you are also paying for a certificate that says you were able to deal with the beauracracy of getting an undergraduate degree and are therefore likely to survive worse beauracracy as a grad student.

Your ideas about these things are rather naive, I think.

JonDrew

My professor's specialty is Biophysics and a good Biophysicist at that, which is cool because thats what I am planning I want to go into. But I do understand relativity better than my professor and its very apparent, not just a speculation. Quantum and other topics are a very different case, but relativity I really do. Most the students in my class would probably agree on that they do too.

I am not likely to survive bureaucracy, I admit that, I have close to zero tolerance for it. Like,

lim f(Me) = 0
Me-->bureaucrate

Me being the variable as a function of tolerance.

Mentalist

I am more personable than most, and I consider myself rather slow because of my own speed of processing power isn't on par with the other young adults. But I was able to get a research in the chemistry department of trying to understand catalysts better for many medical applications, etc... I got the position as I was wondering around one day, laughing at posters, and asking one of the chemistry instructors who I took for general chemistry about bacteria wavelengths. A few discussions later, I was talking about catalysts because I had been reading a bunch of papers on the web about catalysts, etc..., and I had a few ideas of my own from the reading. He introduced me to another professor that was dealing with catalysts and was looking for an undergraduate junior chemistry major, but I guess after meeting me and seeing my level of interest, decided he didn't. I felt jolly obviously because (1), I don't think I am smart rather slow (to which I have been told I was, and I am more of a slower thinker anyway), (2), I was still a freshman at the time and had no idea catalysis behavior as an inorganic chemist or organic chemist.

Long story short, I was able to undertake some research over the winter and then got a grant for summer research to which I became ecstatic. I now believe in the slow tortoise wins the race phrase I heard all my life. I still do research and I primarily am involved with creating reactions under supervision by the professor, but he did say I don't need much supervision any longer and can just go in and begin my time spent.

The other research I plan on getting involved in is physics-based research to which I have to complete some upper-division physics courses that I am currently working on. That is another reason why I am using OCW because I am currently having trouble understanding some of the higher physics such as quantum mechanics (internet, free course) to which I am obviously not ready to take but I prefer a rough grasp than no grasp at all as I want to get into chaos research.

One fault which I believe is holding me back is my lack of aptitude in the grammar department. I am above average when it comes to sciences (not a genius or gifted in aptitude, I am more creative though), but below average when it comes to grammar even though I am a native english speaker. I guess I never really cared all too much for it as I felt if people understood me what was the purpose of knowing what a verb was exactly. I know how to speak it! That was my thoughts, but seeing as people tend to find it "uncouth" and more akin to some court jester speaking in tongues, I find myself having to undertake english composition 101 (not the actual course number). And so far so good, I am better at it now (compared to before), and using forums like this one helps.

But, I love the research I am doing and don't want to get kicked off even though I have been reassured in the sense of I am doing better than expected, that I won't, I still feel I am too inadequate given he wanted a junior chemistry major and I hadn't completed the second course in chemistry yet. But all is well, I know more now than I did in the winter which is surprising.

Find a position in research. The courses may not be to your liking but I always felt even if I thought I knew more, it'd be more wise to show it on tests and in good discussions with the professor but not in the sense of, "ha, ha! I am smarter and know more than you!" rather on a level that shows that you have an above grasp and interest in the material.

Vanadium 50

If you cannot handle the bureaucracy of an undergraduate education, what makes you think you can handle the greater bureaucracy of an graduate education? Or the greater still bureaucracy of being a working scientist? Grant proposals, requests for telescope scheduling, committee work: this is part of the day to day life of a scientist.

I guarantee you that the graduate admissions committee will be asking exactly these questions.

JonDrew

I am actually an extremely diligent worker as well. I'm not sure what level of grammar your having trouble with or even if your just struggling with writing in general but, one thing that helps me a lot when I'm typing up reports is are speech to text compilers. I can have the computer read my own words back to me and then I can usually edit my papers in about 10 minutes, at the most.

Which OCW corse are you taking the Leonard Suskind one or some other one and I was also curious what is the difference between a quantum mechanics course and a quantum physics course? My intuition tells me quantum mechanics is from the chem. dept. and quantum physics is from the physics dept.

Why would they kick you off your research?

TMFKAN64

There are two paths you can take through life.

The first path is for independently wealthy geniuses, who can study what they want when they want and disregard all of the rules.

The second path is for everyone else, and consists of jumping through the hoops that are set in front of you in the order that they are set in front of you.

If you attempt the first path and are *not* both wealthy *and* brilliant, you will be in for a world of hurt.

JonDrew

By what exactly do you mean bureaucracy? Because I guess I associate very strong connotations with that term. connotations like corruption, top down structures, restricted freedoms on expressing ones opinion (because expressing ones own opinion at the risk of making the "wrong" person angry is "dangerous"), and finally, opportunities being given to those with more political "pull" rather than those who are the most experienced or able.

Thats what bureaucracy means to me, please elaborate on what you mean as to ensure no semantics are left unexposed.

JonDrew

I guess this is the exact stigma I find myself challenging at this point in my life.

Please elaborate on what a genius means to you.

My definition isn't someone who is outrageously more intelligent than everyone else but rather, it is a person who knows how to use the brainpower given to them at its maximum potential.

chill_factor

that's exactly what happens in academia. what, you don't know about administrators being paid far more than faculty, about certain research directions being not hot so you have to do whats "hot" or face reduced funding, about petty squabbles from using "SOMEONE ELSE'S" microwave, about office politics? about papers being published simply because they're from a "hot" professor on a "hot" topic while its plain wrong? What about 80% of biomedical cancer research article conclusions being absolutely irreproducible even with the help of the original writers? That's in biomedical fields where you can actually do lots of experiments in medium budget labs, I wonder whats the rate in astro and HEP where there's a single instrument in the world that can do it and if you make [stuff] up that sounds plausible you literally cannot be refuted?

also, i guarantee you, after you do some Arfken and Jackson problems (being FORCED to do them, otherwise you get fired), you will at the very least strongly reconsider your love for physics, if not outright be crushed.