Can high insulin make you fat?

SW VandeCarr

Quote by Ivan Seeking

In the Atkins diet, most carbs are supposed to come from veggies. The total of all carbs during the induction phase are supposed to be limited to 25 grams per day. And the induction phase is typically short lived - only a few weeks. I don't understand your point here. The induction phase is only intended to induce ketosis. And it isn't even considered to be absolutely necessary, but the effects are indeed amazing! I stayed ketogenic for over six months [two periods of three-months each] and I was shedding weight so fast that my wife was freaking out.

I already said the Atkins diet and other low carb diets seem to be effective in treating obesity. My arguments are directed toward the claims that it can be a lifestyle that would increase longevity. The case of non-diabetic ketoacidosis described in post 15 occurred after 4 years on a low carb diet.

Ivan Seeking

Quote by SW VandeCarr

I already said the Atkins diet and other low carb diets seem to be effective in treating obesity. My arguments are directed toward the claims that it can be a lifestyle that would increase longevity. The case of non-diabetic ketoacidosis described in post 15 occurred after 4 years on a low carb diet.

The patient strictly adhered to a low-carbohydrate diet for four years, with an estimated carbohydrate intake that was often less than 20 g per day.

That is a Atkins on steroids. And I didn't see anything about her caloric intake, her nutrients, her fluids intake, or the nature of her diet. She wasn't necessarily following any diet but just severely resticting her carb intake. For example, it is considered critical that one consume plenty of fluids. They did indicate that she needed fluids. So it isn't obvious to me at all that this is reprsentitive of a balanced ketogenic diet.

bohm2

Quote by SW VandeCarr

I agree your argument sounds reasonable, but I would appreciate a reference comparing the amount of insulin released in non diabetic persons with a glycemic challenge to that released in non diabetic ketoacidosis induced by a low carbohydrate diet. My interest is not only in the risks of ketoacidosis in such people, but also in the possible effects of hypoglycemia as ketone levels fall.

As I said I'm relatively agnostic about this stuff but there are a number of papers on this topic. You might want to have a look at these and the references listed there:

Low-carbohydrate nutrition and metabolism
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/2/276.full.pdf

Ketogenic diets for weight loss: A review of their principles, safety and efficacy
http://www.sochob.cl/pdf/obesidad_ad...20efficacy.pdf

Metabolic effects of the Very-low-Carbohydrate diets: misunderstood "villains" of human metabolism
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...2783-1-2-7.pdf

SW VandeCarr

Quote by Ivan Seeking

That is a Atkins on steroids. And I didn't see anything about her caloric intake, her nutrients, her fluids intake, or the nature of her diet. She wasn't necessarily following any diet but just severely resticting her carb intake. For example, it is considered critical that one consume plenty of fluids. They did indicate that she needed fluids. So it isn't obvious to me at all that this is reprsentitive of a balanced ketogenic diet.

Ketoacidosis is a hyper-osmolar condition that leads to an osmotic diuresis and dehydration. I can't add anything to what the article said. The point is that by shifting the metabolism toward a ketotic state, the risk of ketoacidosis in non diabetics can be expected to increase in the population of L-CHO dieters. 100% compliance in all aspects, all the time and by all participants is an unreasonable expectation, if in fact non-compliance is the problem in this case.

bohm2

Another reason why nutrition science is so confusing. Consider the previous study linked above suggesting that ketone production may be the mechanism by which calorie restriction increases longevity. Now look at the conclusions of this study suggesting that caloric restriction may not, after all, affect longevity in monkeys or humans:

The verdict, from a 25-year study in rhesus monkeys fed 30% less than control animals, represents another setback for the notion that a simple, diet-triggered switch can slow ageing. Instead, the findings, published this week in Nature, suggest that genetics and dietary composition matter more for longevity than a simple calorie count...The molecular effects of caloric restriction have also turned out to be complicated...Meanwhile, there is a dearth of evidence that caloric restriction slows ageing in humans.

Calorie restriction falters in the long run: Genetics and healthy diets matter more for longevity.
http://www.nature.com/news/calorie-r...ng-run-1.11297

Another interesting review article that goes against the "hyperinsulinemia makes you obese" hypothesis and is at odds with the original suggestion in this thread is an article by James Krieger: "Insulin…an Undeserved Bad Reputation". I didn't want to post here because even though he has a number of publications in both nutrition and exercise science, that piece was not published and would not meet criteria of this forum, although he does provide direct peer-reviewed article links to all his arguments. In it he argues that while insulin injection as used in diabetics can induce weight gain, such effects of insulin injection cannot be compared to normal physiological insulin release, since amylin is co-secreted with insulin from the pancreas and amylin has appetite suppressant and lipolytic effects.

bohm2

I thought this was a relevant and very interesting study that was just published in the NEJM suggesting that a Mediterranean diet fared significantly better for primary cardiovascular disease prevention that a low fat diet. What is interesting is that the effects were so dramatic that the researchers felt obliged to stop the study for ethical reasons. The second link is the full study:

According to the researchers, the results of PREDIMED study are relevant as they prove that a high-vegetable fat diet is healthier at a cardiovascular level than a low-fat diet. The authors state that the study has been controversial as it provides new data to reject the idea that it is necessary to reduce fats in order to improve cardiovascular health.

Mediterranean Diet Helps Cut Risk of Heart Attack, Stroke: Results of PREDIMED Study Presented
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0225181536.htm

Our results compare favorably with those of the Women’s Health Initiative Dietary Modification Trial, wherein a low-fat dietary approach resulted in no cardiovascular benefit. Salient components of the Mediterranean diet reportedly associated with better survival include moderate consumption of ethanol (mostly from wine), low consumption of meat and meat products, and high consumption of vegetables, fruits, nuts, legumes, fish, and olive oil. Perhaps there is a synergy among the nutrient-rich foods included in the Mediterranean diet that fosters favorable changes in intermediate pathways of cardiometabolic risk, such as blood lipids, insulin sensitivity, resistance to oxidation, inflammation, and vasoreactivity.

Primary Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease with a Mediterranean Diet
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa1200303

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