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More 9/11 conspiracy!

by polyb
Tags: 9 or 11, conspiracy
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polyb
#1
Jun14-05, 06:29 PM
P: 176
This has been floating on the net for the last couple of days and it does prove to be intriguing. This will definitely be an affirmation for the conspiracy theorists out there because it is coming from a from a pretty interesting source.

Quote Quote by Washington Times
Washington, DC, Jun. 13 (UPI) -- Insider notes from United Press International for June 8.

A former Bush team member during his first administration is now voicing serious doubts about the collapse of the World Trade Center on 9-11. Former chief economist for the Department of Labor during President George W. Bush's first term Morgan Reynolds comments that the official story about the collapse of the WTC is "bogus" and that it is more likely that a controlled demolition destroyed the Twin Towers and adjacent Building No. 7. Reynolds, who also served as director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis in Dallas and is now professor emeritus at Texas A&M University said, "If demolition destroyed three steel skyscrapers at the World Trade Center on 9/11, then the case for an 'inside job' and a government attack on America would be compelling." Reynolds commented from his Texas A&M office, "It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause of the collapse of the twin towers and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely to be correct either. The government's collapse theory is highly vulnerable on its own terms. Only professional demolition appears to account for the full range of facts associated with the collapse of the three buildings."

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-break...2755-6408r.htm
It gets even better, here is the link to the Lew Rockwell post:

Why Did the Trade Center Skyscrapers Collapse?

This article elaborates on his position.

Thoughts, speculations, anyone????
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Evo
#2
Jun14-05, 06:51 PM
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This makes absolutely no sense
Quote Quote by article
More importantly, momentous political and social consequences would follow if impartial observers concluded that professionals imploded the WTC. If demolition destroyed three steel skyscrapers at the World Trade Center on 9/11, then the case for an "inside job" and a government attack on America would be compelling. Meanwhile, the job of scientists, engineers and impartial researchers everywhere is to get the scientific and engineering analysis of 9/11 right, "though heaven should fall." Unfortunately, getting it right in today’s "security state" demands daring because explosives and structural experts have been intimidated in their analyses of the collapses of 9/11.
Attack by what government? Are they implying that the US government had airplanes fly into both WTC towers to cover up a planned implosion of both buildings? Or the terrorists just happened to fly airplanes into the buildings on the day the government planned to implode the buildings?

Even if the buildings were imploded (which from watching the videos of the towers and other intentional implosions, doesn't seem likely, I have never seen a building implode where the detonations were not clearly visible from the outside of the building) why would it implicate the government? Those weren't government buildings, thousands of people had free access to those buildings every day.
Pengwuino
#3
Jun14-05, 06:57 PM
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Ah yes, more non-engineers (in this case, an economist) with conclusive proof that the building had to have been brought down by a controlled demolition!

Its not, "a credible source now believes the WTC was a conspiracy", its "a credible source how now fallen for the idea that the WTC was a conspiracy". This reminds me of when the AP picked up on a city trying to ban water and were also fooled.

And on a more engineering approach to the rhetoric... who on earth thinks "Ok we just need to make sure the WTC collapses... lets put explosives on a mere 3 floors!". Of course, if they REALLY wanted to make a conspiracy out of it... why not do exactly what someone did the first time? A bomb at the base of the building... I mean itd be so much easier to topple the building with controlled explosions at the bottom then around the 80th floor.

polyb
#4
Jun14-05, 07:33 PM
P: 176
More 9/11 conspiracy!

Quote Quote by Evo
Attack by what government? Are they implying that the US government had airplanes fly into both WTC towers to cover up a planned implosion of both buildings? Or the terrorists just happened to fly airplanes into the buildings on the day the government planned to implode the buildings?
That would seem to be one implication. Depending on who you listen to, there are many who seem to think that this was an "Operation Northwoods" type of event. Do you think that there could possibly be organizations that would instigate this for profit, power, etc.? Personally, I wouldn't put anything past anyone if the stakes were high enough.

There certainly some 'oddities' surrounding the whole event. For example, why did NORAD stand down that day? Who profited from shorting the airline stocks? What happened to that investigation? Why was most of the forensic evidence destroyed,i.e. apparently most of the steel from the wreckage was sent off for smelting shorlty after? How does JP-8 melt steel on a building designed to handle the impact of an airliner? Considering the story we were feed and what has transpired since, I have doubts about what happened. IMHO, this administration has no credibility and why should I believe what I was told about 9/11. Unfortunately I am in no position to thoroughly analyze the evidence and come to a conclusion that I would consider reliable and acceptable.


Quote Quote by Pengwuino
Ah yes, more non-engineers (in this case, an economist) with conclusive proof that the building had to have been brought down by a controlled demolition!
Well if engineers is what you want then here is a site that claims to be german engineers:

http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas...e/defaulte.htm

Not to say engineers are all knowing, hell I have seen quite a few screw up a lot of things!

He does propose an interesting conjecture on which is the more realistic and I think it does merit some inquiry. In light of the fact that this administration has no credibility and anything that they have said in the past does deserve to be scrutinized, I say so be it, let the debate and discourse ensue!
Pengwuino
#5
Jun14-05, 07:53 PM
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That website has absolutely no credibility in my books. Its a home internet users website! If there was a real group of engineers who could actually come up with something like this, it would be on a real website and it woudlnt claim that a freaken US unmaned military aircraft took out the WTC.

Unfortunately, you seem to allow your bias to blind the necessary intellect requird to realize these people are nuts. Many websites (and threads in this forum for that matter) have the information that will hopefully make you realize the truth to this matter. But to hopefully make you realize that you have been fooled, let me ask you something. What exactly do you mean by "norad stood down" and what exactly does tha tmean to this? WHY is what NORAD is doing at all relavant? And remember, dont let your bias force you into ASSUMING anything means anything else (thats the basis for most conspiracies, your forced to assume something which makes u think ohhh, this is why this happened which means its the truth!)

And what in teh world is this?

If this is the rest of a Boeing the machine must have been smashed into little pieces of metal. For this a lot of energy is necessary. If it would have been a fight inside the cockpit there would have been larger metal parts visible after this
This quote is from a few very small pictures presented as proof "The bush administration is lieing to you". Look at the third line.... look at it and tell me that this must be a scientifically derived website of complete credibility.
Evo
#6
Jun14-05, 08:27 PM
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Quote Quote by polyb
There certainly some 'oddities' surrounding the whole event. For example, why did NORAD stand down that day?
They didn't, that was already addressed in another conspiracy thread.

He does propose an interesting conjecture on which is the more realistic and I think it does merit some inquiry. In light of the fact that this administration has no credibility and anything that they have said in the past does deserve to be scrutinized, I say so be it, let the debate and discourse ensue!
I think this is a ridiculous waste of time and money. Exactly what groups trying to hurt the US would want. There just is no evidence to support any of this.
polyb
#7
Jun14-05, 09:00 PM
P: 176
Why do you think I modified my statement with "claims to be german engineers"? I really do not not know if they are or not. Besides, who ever said engineers were born web gurus? Just because one has an engineering degree does not automatically make one a good web page designer!

Now let's get to your bias, OK. It is obvious that you are dead set against any of these conspiracy theories, which I definitively concur with you in terms of the skepticism that is due. But since skepticism is part of the game, then should we not also apply this to the 'official' story as well? In order to come to any conclusion that would that could be considered reliable and appropriate we have to apply the the same standards to all stories and claims.

Now for my bias, well I really do not have one either way because there is no way for me to determine what happened because I am in no position to do that. I am highly skeptical of the official story considering that the stories we were feed proved later to be false. I cite C.Rice where she had stated there was no way they could have known the attacks were going to happen. Yet later Clarke testifies before congress that they had sufficient warning that attacks were being planned. That is one reason why I think this administration has no credibility.

Now to address the 'stand-down' with NORAD. Here I'll refer you to WRH site and let you gander through his take on this whole thing:

The 9/11 USAF Stand Down

BTW, just a little FYI: Rivero, the site originator, claims to be a conservative republican who originally started this site when the Vince Foster case came up against Clinton. His take was that Foster was 'suicided'.

The details are pretty complicated and it really isn't as simple as NORAD stood down. My bad for any misrepresentation. It is interesting that NORAD/USAF was conducting some complicated drills on 9/11 and there was zero response to the highjackings. It gets more detailed and complicated from here though. Here is something to think about: Do you remember the Arnold Palmer flight incident? You know, his plane had decompressed and everyone aboard had died. Well if you remember the story, it did not take long for the USAF to scramble jets and check out what had happened after contact was lost. Point being is that there are protocols for these or any events. But that did not happen on 9/11?

Just to throw this odd part of the 9/11 story into the mix, did you hear about the five middle eastern men who were alleged to have been filming the event and dancing in the streets when it all happened?

As for complete crediblilty, it's a myth! I view all of these things with skepticism and in no way alluded to supporting or denying any claims, I was just posting here because I thought it was interesting that the author had some impressive credentials. Oh ya, you forgot to mention all of the author's credentials in your zeal, so here they are:


Morgan Reynolds, Ph.D., is professor emeritus at Texas A&M University and former director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis headquartered in Dallas, TX. He served as chief economist for the US Department of Labor during 2001–2, George W. Bush's first term.
polyb
#8
Jun14-05, 10:02 PM
P: 176
Quote Quote by Evo
They didn't, that was already addressed in another conspiracy thread.
I missed that one! Gotta link?

Quote Quote by Evo
I think this is a ridiculous waste of time and money. Exactly what groups trying to hurt the US would want. There just is no evidence to support any of this.
Perhaps the question of who stood to benefit, gain, and profit would be a good point of inquiry. BTW, that goes for any theory, be it al-queda, israel, the military-industrial-fast-food complex, or whomever. It isn't very pleasant to consider that anyone would instigate such atrocities in the name of profit, but look at history and you can see the same thing happening over and over again. So in a respect it wouldn't really be anything new. Hence why I said I thought if the stakes were high enough I would not put anything past anyone. It does certainly kind of diminish one's faith in humanity, but then again that may be healthy in some respects.

Interesting that you would waste your time with this thread, if you wanted to chat I could think of a million other things to discuss that would be much more pleasant than this stuff.
Azimuth
#9
Jun14-05, 11:56 PM
P: 11
Quote Quote by polyb
Perhaps the question of who stood to benefit, gain, and profit would be a good point of inquiry. :
i thought this thread was trying to point to the government not al-qaeda or anyone else who might try to 'benefit' from staging an attack. And why would the US murder her own citezens? what could possibly be gained by this? it was just for sport? ridiculous! oh but then they would have had to pay off like at the very VERY least, a few dozen ppl to say that their husbands, moms, whatev. died in a feild after overpowering the terrorist who alledgedly invaded the plane... yes very sensible, and just to make sure noone suspected the government we immediatly put into affect the USA PATRIOT ACT, and paid a couple foriegn nationals to make threats and 'admit' they had planned this, not to mention that they of course filmed the footage we saw on tv on a model of the towers just to make all of us believe it was really a terrorist attack, then to top it all off they paid all of NYC to claim they saw these "attacks"...and none of these ppl ever siad anything...very reasonable i completely agree it HAD to have been the government

GET REAL!!! excuse the subtle sarcasm but this IS absurd
TheStatutoryApe
#10
Jun15-05, 12:07 AM
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http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=57420
Here is a thread where we went over various claims involving the WTC towers as well as a few other aspects. Oh.. and look... it appears you were the one who started that particular thread too... hmmm interesting.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.html
this was a good link I found that explains the collapse rather well.
Pengwuino
#11
Jun15-05, 12:51 AM
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Hey poly, you'll have to excuse me and probably a lot of people on this forum. Its just that almost since day 1 (9/11/01), we've had to disprove conspiracies like this over and over and over be it in this forum, other forum, at work, school, at social events, etc etc and although many of us were quick to look into the evidence and everything and create well thought out responses and debunking efforts, its gotten to a point where we just dont care to give very reasonable responses anymore.

Anyhow, ill be nice because you didnt go off cussing at everyone for no responding like most people do lol. As for the website, if your a group of people and you have true compelling evidence for something that you seriously took time and most likely money to create a case for, you most likely have the $20 a month necessary to maintain a website that does not offer any downloadable stuff and the few hundred dollars ncessary to hire someone to make the website. If your truely a serious person and really care to get the "truth" out... this cost is a drop in the bucket (especially compared to what you probably paid in time and money to build your case).

Anyhow lets see here... ah yes, for one, they calculated flight speed going at sea level (yet what fighter flies at sea level??? especially when your told to intercept a commercial jet in flight). The website also ironically ignored the fact that no interceptor aircraft were at AAFB at the time. You must also be foolish enough to assume that if an aircrafts transpoder goes off, NORAD (who wouldnt really be the first line of defense because local radars would pick it up first) instantly knows its a hijacked airplane doomed to hit a building. As we have found out through the years, NORAD was somewhat slow because people got lazy but this does not by any means conclude that they made it happen. I believe some experts say that on an average day, about a dozen aircraft have their transponder signals go out for a few seconds or a few dozen minutes and aircraft are scrambled about once a day (even before 9/11).

Also, the site thinks, ok, since htere was an operation specifically created to stop this kind of attack means that they should have been MORE prepared for it. In fact, if we look at how humans work, they would have been far less prepared for an actual attack if it happened those days (which it did). Think about the chain of command hearing theres an airplane that has gone off according to its transponder and your in a training exercise when something juuuuust like that might happen. Do you expect to carry out hte order at blazing speeds or are you going to have that "oh saw that coming, guess we should go do it" lazy, slow-witted response? Most peoples experiences iwth humans say the latter.

Sounds like your already completely convinced President Bush pushed the detonating plunger to blow up the towers however according to statutory so meh... doubt you could see the websites through clear, unbiased, scientific eyes.
TheStatutoryApe
#12
Jun15-05, 01:30 AM
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Quote Quote by Pengwuino
Sounds like your already completely convinced President Bush pushed the detonating plunger to blow up the towers however according to statutory so meh... doubt you could see the websites through clear, unbiased, scientific eyes.
Just for the record I did not say that. I just posted a couple links. ;-p
Pengwuino
#13
Jun15-05, 01:35 AM
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Dont deny it!!!!! ahhhh!!!!!

I think all these conspiracies are good for the government. If at anytime, any administration decides to pull some actual weird conspiracy, the onslaught of ignorant conspiracies in the last few years will make people think "oh pff, not agian... im not even gonna try to do a real investigation this time".
chief
#14
Jun15-05, 10:14 AM
P: 48
Wow... are these theories still around? It's amazing what some people will convince themselves of if it makes for a better story or a fascinating mystery they can attempt to unravel.

I am a practicing structural engineer. I have an undergraduate degree in civil engineering, I also took 5 or 6 graduate level structural design courses, and I have plenty of experience in the structural design field. Trust me when I say there is no truth to these theories. All of my co-workers and colleagues agree. I could systematically go through and refute or explain away nearly every "point" Morgan Reynolds attempts to make, but I won’t waste time on that. It is glaringly obvious from his prose that he is not familiar with how a building is constructed, steel design, stress analysis, or load transfer. Maybe he can easily fool a semi educated lay person, but he isn’t fooling me. Hundreds of real experts conducted their independent detailed investigations (yes they did analyze the collapsed structural elements before they were recycled as well as the patterns of smoke leaving the building and all other evidence) and came to the same conclusion… ASCE (America Society of Civil Engineers) and Leslie Robertson (the original structural engineer) are among them. Yes, the ASCE Report was created in conjunction with FEMA, but ASCE is an independent organization made up of thousands of the most credible and ethical engineers we have. I was a member myself for many years and you could not convince me that they would be part of a cover-up.

Although the mode of collapse for the two buildings was slightly different due to the impact locations, the bottom line is this: Planes flew into the world trade center. The impact of the planes alone was not enough to cause collapse. The fire alone was probably not enough to cause collapse either. The most damaging thing was the explosion which blew the fireproofing off of the steel framing. (Fire proofing is typically sprayed on to steel framing to reach a certain thickness. This is to protect the steel which begins to lose strength as it heats up.) The problem was that although the fire proofing was fine for typical building fires (electrical fires, etc.) it was not blast resistant. The force of the explosion blew off all of the fireproofing in the surrounding areas. This left the steel defenseless against the flames which slowly heated it up and diminished its load carrying capacity. It has even been determined that the connection of the lightweight floor trusses probably failed first and separated from the exterior columns. This in turn caused the unbraced length of the column to grow. The taller the column becomes (between brace points.. i.e. the floors) the less load they can carry before they begin to buckle. Eventually the load became too much for the weakening steel and the floors above the impact point collapsed. This caused a chain reaction pancake collapse all the way to the ground. No bombs needed.

I enjoy researching a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy but this one is dead… debunked. Show me just one credible structural engineer that believes this bomb theory. There aren’t any and there is a reason for that.


-chief
Tarheel
#15
Jun15-05, 02:36 PM
P: 74
Quote Quote by Evo
I have never seen a building implode where the detonations were not clearly visible from the outside of the building.
This is my 1st thought as well.
The demo charges are also sequenced from the ground up which would make it even more obvious.

What about the logistics of placing countless charges and wiring them all completely undetected. This is the most impossible part of the entire theory.
Portions of the building would need to be torn open to access structural members and place charges. There would be 100's of charges per floor and all of them wired together carefully.
A project like that takes months to complete (and that's without having to sneak around)
Pengwuino
#16
Jun15-05, 02:39 PM
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Quote Quote by Tarheel
This is the most impossible part of the entire theory.
But its George W. Bush! he can do annnnnnnnnnnnything!!!

As long as its evil
quantumkevlar
#17
Jun16-05, 01:27 PM
P: 3
[QUOTE=chief]
...
The most damaging thing was the explosion which blew the fireproofing off of the steel framing. ... The problem was that although the fire proofing was fine for typical building fires (electrical fires, etc.) it was not blast resistant. The force of the explosion blew off all of the fireproofing in the surrounding areas. This left the steel defenseless against the flames which slowly heated it up and diminished its load carrying capacity. \

...

The official NIST investigation into the collapse http://wtc.nist.gov/ is due to release its WTC Draft Report and Recommendations on June 23. This looks to have a lot of the results of the engineering simulation and analysis work done for the investigation. I read a preliminary draft a while back which seems to bear out your points.

The collapse of WTC7, on the other hand, is a bit more problematic. No aircraft impact , minor damage from WTC1 and 2 debris, and a significantly smaller fire. Therefore no explosive blowing off of fire proofing. Still, there was complete structural collapse. There seems to be a much stronger case for there having been unacknowledged mischief at WTC7 than at the other buildings. The 23 Jun NIST report will not address WTC7. The earlier draft I read did start to address it, but they never got very far in the investigation because of the emphasis being placed on WTC1 and 2. Their very tentative suggestions as to a possible cause of collapse were made without conviction.

quantumkevlar
courageouslion
#18
Jun16-05, 02:38 PM
P: 2
WHY AMERICANS REFUSE TO BELIEVE
THE 9/11 EVIDENCE...

An Analysis by TvNewsLIES.org - April - 2005

The attacks of 9/11 were so unthinkable that most Americans would refuse to believe the complicity of their own government, even if presented with a mountain of evidence.

Very simply, it is possible to escape blame if you do something that nobody in the world believes you could do.

tvnewslies.org/html/refusing_the_9_11_evidence.html


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