# Key Argument for Global Warming Critics Evaporates

by Ivan Seeking
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 P: 154 LD Hey! who stole my post?? WHO STOLE MY POST Rotten sodder I'll get 'em, or turtle will, when he gets back, anyway, here it is as it was It would appear to me that the tendancy of recent Accountings of the Increase in the number of Catagorey Four and Five storms/hurricanes is indicative of the planetary atmosphere attempting to cool by the driving of the Warmer sea surface temperatures upward to the Higher altitudes, there to cool by radience of the stored heat, so it indicative of an increase in the Blending rates. The Idea though must contain the Atmospheric pollutants that are accumulated, as, even if there isn't a Greater danger now then ever before in History, the changes we have undertaken in emplacement of Housing and Cities-Towns exposes much greater numbers to effects of more active climate situations, and the Smog, as evidenced by Horizon line coverage indicates that 'affectations' are taking on greater spacial occupations then perhaps had been previously thought, not just heat sinks in the cities, but out 'into the reaches' as well. Good thread though. LD Ou Sont Les Lapine? "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" Il pleurer
PF Gold
P: 5,459
Smart tactics PattyLou and a well known red herring, the fallacy of the restricted choice. You used it earlier asking me to find a political leader who would say anything about economic things. I have a few dozen economists available, but you would immediately reply that I did not comply with your restricted choice.

Therefore lets see what main world leader battling global warming T Blair has to say:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...796800,00.html

 Tony Blair has hinted Britain may pull out of attempts to draw up a successor to the Kyoto climate treaty because the economic price of cutting greenhouse gas emissions is too high.
Now, back to realclimate, those writers Mann and Schmidt are climate scientists, the first one is nominated for the Guiness Book of World Records for his record number of ad hominems, And indeed they are not environmentalists so if they use an ad hominem ad circumstance, it doesn't count and I have failed to comply. Hence I'm wrong

Chrichton BTW holds degrees. He is medical doctor so he knows about scientific methods and he also knows very well what is going on in the scientific word of climate science.

So the abundance of fallacies supports the general understanding that there is no scientific basis for any theory of AGW (other than marginal which I agree to) but there is no supporting proof as well. So all what the global warmers can do is revert to red herrings and models, that play no role in the scientific method. Which also gives the impression winning discussions with fallacy tricks is much more important than finding the truth.

For instance:

 we find tropical warming consistent with that found at the surface and in our satellite derived of middle-upper tropospheric temperature Which stands in stark contrast to your statement: Quote: The atmosphere is indeed warming, not cooling as the data previously showed. ... boldface part is plainly wrong. Period.
The fallacy here is strawman. My quote is a repetition of the opening post, which is intended to support the title of the thread “Key Argument for Global Warming Critics Evaporates", but you make it sound that it is used against the abstract of one the articles and then slam me for it. A perfect strawman.

Now if we study the numbers in detail we only find that it is all about minor adjustments, which need to be sensationalized to "Key Argument for Global Warming Critics Evaporates" because that is what this thread is all about. Not about the content of those articles but about “Key Argument for Global Warming Critics Evaporates” So the trick is to stretch the truth abit: “….not cooling as the data previously showed” and produce a lie in the process. I’m only exposing liers. Since for the third time: the previous data ALSO showed warming. Nobody is claiming that previous data showed cooling. I do wonder what is Chinese about that

But then again in only twenty minutes it must be quite hard to comprehend what a non native tongue intends to say.

So why is the reporter using that line? To initiate another strawman. Make believe that previous data showed something completely different to try and substantiate his overstatement: "Key Argument for Global Warming Critics Evaporates"

 I can certainly find the oil industry as part and parcel of your 'home'
Now why would that be so interesting? I’m really looking forward discussing oil companies

Now finally, my return restricted choice question is please find me a baker (knows all about warming) who proofs that global warming is mainly caused by human activities (but any climatologist is okay too).
 P: 154 Don't know about the arguement evaporating, but the sheer volume of people using energy sources daily outstrips anything in Historical record for (natural) additions of, or to, Heat, or heating values. !% added to what the Sun gives us, that is in addition to the Suns' donation, and it is perpetuated every single day, that 'adding' is telling, over time, no doubt. Conservation of energy, or heat, rules.
PF Gold
P: 5,459
C’est vrai Lapin, However I’ve seen calculations somewhere that the anthropogenic energy to atrophy conversion is some hundreds or so orders of magnitude lower than the solar energy.

Anyway, I found a Swedish article in my house:

author: Gosta Wallin, not really renowned as a science fiction writer. My Swedish stinks but we have those internet translators. I found this one to be one of the very few that includes Swedish: http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box

So what does the header say?

 Do not blame on carbon dioxide Gösta Walin: Those the violence suckling hurricanes as ravaged is horrible but can meagreliest to be related to the increased greenhouse effect
I think the gist is clear, albeit that “meagreliest” appears to be the result of a rather liberal interpretation of the English idiom.

 Hotelser om fler och starkare stormar, översvämmningar på grund av mer koldioxid som vi dagligen serveras är tagna ur luften. Tvärtom så bör den förväntade något jämnare temperaturen minska risken för busväder. Hotelser om fler och starkare stormar, översvämmningar på grund av mer koldioxid som vi dagligen serveras är tagna ur luften. Tvärtom så bör den förväntade något jämnare temperaturen minska risken för busväder.
becomes:

 Threats about more and stronger blows a gale, översvämmningar because of more carbon dioxide that we daily to be waited on is taken from the air. However so, some the expected more even temperature should decrease the risk for mischief weathers.
”översvämmningar” is anybodies guess, personally I would go for inundations, whilst ”taken from the air” does not seem to indicate a strong relationship. Apparently the more equal temperatures should reduce those perils.

Now the start of the next paragraph:

 Which is then the alarmistiska the arguments? With gigantic computer models, one tries to pretend the climate's development. The result farms to show on hotter future, sometime high-temperature. The results are called projections (projektioner) or scenarios (scenarier), which means that the forecast value is “obefintligt” (lacking?). I see the most as a rash of quantity habit mind to believe that the climate can be projected in a computer.
The last sentence puzzles me, perhaps something like: “I consider
it a substantial carelessness to believe that climate can be properly imaged by a computer” ?

So what is his conclusion?

 Culture area delivers a hypothesis that to be caught up of ideologiska forces, the in front environmentalism that carries out effective lobbyism. The mass mediums follow up and since is the only for the politicians to correct in itself in the stage. The truth is thereby conclusive. The that balances object becomes idiot explained or scolded in order to be bought. Ways halts for that life hostile bill corporal punishment breath, you that has power to influence. Experiments see the positive with more carbon dioxide and calm down your, the climate can nevertheless not to be governed.
Dear me. Babel fishes are not the answer. The first word “Vetenskapare” sounds more like “wetenschap” in Dutch, which is “science”, not culture. So what does he mean? The gist of the article and some free interpretations could get us something like:

 Science produces a hypothesis (Anthropogenic Global Warning) which is grasped by ideological movements, headed by the environmentalists lead who are highly skilled in lobbying. Media follow suit and politicians have no choice to adapt to the wishes of the people. Thus, truth is established and those who dare to oppose objectively are declared either idiots or greedy traitors with special interests. whoever has the power to influence, stop the crime (?) propaganda(?) against life. Try to see the positive side of carbon dioxide and calm down. There is no way that mankind could ever control climate.
I see now that he is retired (professor emeritus). Is that the reason that he jumped off the bandwagon? No more risk of loosing his position/budgets/ etc when really speaking up and giving a honest opinion?

I expect him in our house soon. But the members should express themselves more in the open, get rid of the World War II- like illegal underground status. Good job Gösta Walin!
 P: 154 Forgive me but it sounds a little bit like the scientists who insisted that we could never damage the oceans as they were simply Too Vast, he was clearly very wrong. As for the heat values I had heard that adding 1% of the Solar input to the planets heating would make a difference, then again just look at all of the bleached and bleaching corrals around the Center, the equator and the rest of the Worlds Oceans Thousands of years old, and now? Heat death? Sorry but I prefer to realise that all of the heating that six Billion people can accoplish on a regular, and daily, basis doesn't just 'vanish into thin air' slower when it is thicker air I might add. Nice reading you though, good sources, good sense, sorta just that we apparently differ as I seem to see that the situation is different that ever before, in History, due to the Sheer Number of People living today, so the effects can have much larger consequences. 6 Billion people, everyday, making at least One fire, can you see the smoke, or the horizon? for that matter?
 P: 2,056 MOOOO *I'm a cow whose destroying the Earth with farts. * (nice post #40 Andre!)
P: 154
LD
Once again someone stole my post, who keeps stealing these posts?

Look a Condescending Derision! the last intellectual arguement of an intellectual who has no arguement.

 Quote by Mk *I'm a cow...
At Least your an Honest Condescending Derisionist

LD
Seen leaving the scene, in a Hurry « (≈ Zooooooooom » but Please let it stand this time. otherwise your demonstrating yourselves as Prejudice and Intolerant
P: 1,036
This isn't how the sequence in this thread reads to me at all Andre.

Here is how the sequence reads to me. You make claims without backing them up. I ask you to back them up. You don't. You may provide something that doesn't address my question at all (the crichton reference, for example), and so I point out that you are not understanding the sequence I am enumerating ... and can you please try to address the question. At this point you start pointing fingers at me and saying "well known fallacy, red herring, etc etc" and you *still* don't answer the question.

I re-entered this particular conversation because somebody appeared to think that you represent some sort of largely held view, and they seemed impressed with your quantities of acronyms and references. There seemed to be a sense (to me) that this was seen as authority on the topic. By your own admission, you get it from "Climateskeptic.org," a bit of an information clearinghouse for those who *want* to see the skeptical viewpoint. In other words, there *may* be a bit of bias there!

If what you say truly "makes sense" to others, (and I trust those individuals to decide for themselves if your posts are truly sensible or not) then I am happy for you and for them.

But if your posts merely make them feel good about things, ("oh good, all the warming reports are just sensationalism, because Andre 'obviously knows what he's talking about'" .... which I take to mean that you put up something that looks informed --- but as soon as I start to visit your links ... it's like wading into a morasse of nonsequiturs to the discussion at hand.) then I would like to point out to those readers that they should apply their own reasoning skills and perhaps do their own research into the literature.

It bears pointing out that when I try to dissect through your posts with you, in order to understand them, you point and call "Fallacy! Fallacy!" This leads me to conclude that options 2 or 3 above, are most likely.

Ultimately, it is up to the reader to decide which side "makes sense" to them. Perhaps the failing is mine, and perhaps your take really "rings true" to some people here. I trust the individual readers to reach their own considered opinion on the matter, and one that they can live with, with integrity.

I hope you are well, Andre. You may see me again, but probably not for a few days at the least. You wear me out.
P: 2,056
 Quote by pattylou By your own admission, you get it from "Climateskeptic.org," a bit of an information clearinghouse for those who *want* to see the skeptical viewpoint. In other words, there *may* be a bit of bias there!
I got to thinking why we can't use "biased" material, but we can use material biased against us? Does it matter they are all valid studies that we are speaking of right? I would more than frown upon anyone who invented a reference.

And like there's no bias among environmentalists? Greenpeace or PETA, or even LiveScience or Scientific American who routinely make fun of Global Warming skeptics. What is ironic here is that skepticism is the very foundation of science.

 Science articles that deal with climate change. This leaves me with the rather uncomfortable conclusion that I *should* be able to follow your discussion.... and yet, I can't! Either the entire scientific community has dumbed down their publications, or you are not presenting a coherent picture, or I simply have some mental block against you.
I seem to have much less education than you with an almighty PhD, and understand Andre well

 Quote by pattylou Who is scaremongering now? Show me where *any* head of *any* country is talking about spending googillions to address climate change.
junkscience.com estimates the Kyoto Protocol has cost signers about 9.45x1010 USD while the potential temperature saving by the year 2050 so far achieved by Kyoto is immeasurably small. They use common sense and primary school reasoning to figure the number.

 Quote by pattylou The recommendations from the concerned scientists and other groups are: (1) Develop alternative energies (create jobs, reduce dependence on foreign oil)
I think nuclear fission and fusion are the way to go for the next generation of power plants. Why try and do all this hydrogen fuel cell and solar cell and hydropower stuff?

 (2) Reduce emissions at a steady pace (through hybrid technologies, hydrogen cells, in other words see #1)
I say just move on, the less developed nations would still be burning fossil fuels, then what would the environmentalists say? Stop them from developing into a nation with miniscule emissions?

 (3) Sustain habitat (maintain biodiversity, which has benefits for health and tourism and other industries .... here's an abstract on how an unusual frog may help in the fight against AIDS:http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200...runc_sys.shtml . Also, this maintains the carbon sink a little better.)
I don't understand this. To sustain habitat would mean like passive conservation, what industries get money from spending money on keeping people out? And what does the HIV vs. Frog fight have to do with this? And what carbon sink? *rips hair out* Yes, I really would like you to clarify on this statement, PLEASE!

 Find me an environmentalist who is scaremongering.
I laughed at that one.

 Quote by Lapin Dormant LD Once again someone stole my post, who keeps stealing these posts?

 Look a Condescending Derision! the last intellectual arguement of an intellectual who has no arguement. At Least your an Honest Condescending Derisionist Please let it stand this time. otherwise your demonstrating yourselves as Prejudice and Intolerant[/color]
Ooooohhhhh big words!
 Emeritus Sci Advisor PF Gold P: 1,430 People, try to maintain the discussion civilized and lets try to focus with the original poster comments.
 P: 154 Agreed, but doesn't the Statement of "Key Argument for Global Warming Critics Evaporates Suggest" that it got Heated to much, that is what 'evaporation' implies.
P: 1,036
 Quote by Mk I got to thinking why we can't use "biased" material, but we can use material biased against us? Does it matter they are all valid studies that we are speaking of right? I would more than frown upon anyone who invented a reference. And like there's no bias among environmentalists? Greenpeace or PETA, or even LiveScience or Scientific American who routinely make fun of Global Warming skeptics. What is ironic here is that skepticism is the very foundation of science. I seem to have much less education than you with an almighty PhD, and understand Andre well junkscience.com estimates the Kyoto Protocol has cost signers about 9.45x1010 USD while the potential temperature saving by the year 2050 so far achieved by Kyoto is immeasurably small. They use common sense and primary school reasoning to figure the number. I think nuclear fission and fusion are the way to go for the next generation of power plants. Why try and do all this hydrogen fuel cell and solar cell and hydropower stuff? I say just move on, the less developed nations would still be burning fossil fuels, then what would the environmentalists say? Stop them from developing into a nation with miniscule emissions?
 Quote by pattylou to andre If what you say truly "makes sense" to others, (and I trust those individuals to decide for themselves if your posts are truly sensible or not) then I am happy for you and for them.
I'm happy to let you decide for yourself, MK.

 I don't understand this. To sustain habitat would mean like passive conservation, what industries get money from spending money on keeping people out? And what does the HIV vs. Frog fight have to do with this? And what carbon sink? *rips hair out* Yes, I really would like you to clarify on this statement, PLEASE!
My interest in the environment actually has very little to do with climate change. I am more concerned with deforestation and pollution. Human activities are destroying habitat all over the planet - from measures that interfere with salmon spawning waterways to cutting down trees in the Amazon.

Insofar as a warming planet isn't *helping* this trend, I pay attention to the warming argument as well.

Carbon sink: Forested areas. Trees contain an incredible amount of carbon, and they get it from the CO2 in the air. They pull it out of the air, and make cellulose with it, and grow bigger. This traps the CO2 from the atmosphere, into plant matter. Cut down the trees and replace it with asphalt, and you have lost that carbon "sink." Replace it with farmland, and you have still incredibly reduced the sink (a field of grass contains far less carbon that a patch of trees on the same land. And, the grass isn't a long term sink, as it is harvested and decomposed every year. In essence, replacing with farmland is no better than paving the area, in terms of the carbon sink that has been lost.)

The frog is an example of the value of biodiversity. Biodiversity is lost when habitat is destroyed (see preceding stuff.) Many amphibia have gone extinct thanks to man in the last 30 years. Imagine if this frog had gone extinct - and as a result we had never found that it has a powerful anti-AIDS chemical in it's blood (or skin or whatever.) The point is that if you are going to argue economics, you might wish to consider the cost of the AIDS epidemic. If we develop a treatment from this frog that cuts the cost of that epidemic by half - then we are saving billions of dollars per year. In other words, living green can be cheaper.

This frog is not unique - lots of medical treatments have been found in wild animals, plants, fungi, etc. In other words, the benefit of maintaining habitat (and this includes, but is not limited to, heating up the planet) is that we can more easily discover new pharmaceuticals, and cut health care costs.

 I laughed at that one.

-Patty

p.s. My PhD isn't 'almighty.' It's just something I earned. I am neither bragging, nor do I see any sense in not mentioning it out of ...decorum? What? It's a degree. I am sure you have one yourself. I mentioned it only because in the program, I was required to learn to read the scientific literature - and that applies to these discussions. Now, it is an easy thing to pick up Nature or Science and see what is cutting edge in any area, including the climate debate.

You are certainly free to earn your own PhD. It requires an investment of time. I encourage you to seriously consider the possibility, the experience is priceless.
P: 1,036
I've been very forthcoming that my field of expertise has nothing to do with climate. It is relevant *only* because through that training I was forced to learn to read scientific literature for comprehension.

I've also said that I am the first to admit that you may well be 'right.' In fact, we probably agree on far more, than what we disagree on.

 Of course they think that they are on the right side of the truth despite the substantial difficulties to explain the greenhouse warming phenomenons both physically and empirically.
In my understanding, this isn't the case. In my understanding, the models are presently fairly good, and continue to get better. For example, the reference that began another thread - From Science, shows that the troposphere is warming, as had been predicted by most if not all models. It is my understanding that the consensus position is fairly strong.

 And of course opposition –crime against humanity in their view- has to be eradicated, but what if that opposition happens to be right?
Again you are inciting emotion. Where has anyone called it a crime against humanity to oppose the consensus position on climate change?

Science can't progress without questions, and skeptics provide questions. The concern is, that with every year that passes without some measure to make our best guess to keep the planet "healthy," (for humans), that we are digging the hole deeper. The precautionary principle comes to mind.

Thank you for not telling me my previous post was nothing but a fallacy.
PF Gold
P: 5,459
 It is relevant *only* because through that training I was forced to learn to read scientific literature for comprehension.
Sorry I was fooling around on a quotation page:

 Try not to have a good time... this is supposed to be educational. Charles M. Schulz

But reading well over 500 scientific papers and abstracts about the ice age, it was still a good time seeing ones hypotheses getting more and support.

 In fact, we probably agree on far more, than what we disagree on.
Yes

 Thank you for not telling me my previous post was nothing but a fallacy.
I do regret that I felt forced to mention fallacies sometimes and I'm sorry about that. I'm afraid it's a part of the unexplaining proces of global warming.

I had made a 3 pages worth of reply one a lonely net-less PC but the file crashed after transporting. I'll post it tomorrow as a new thread.
P: 2,056
 Quote by Andre I had made a 3 pages worth of reply one a lonely net-less PC but the file crashed after transporting. I'll post it tomorrow as a new thread.
OMG I HATE it when that happens! I'm always like WHAT TEH F***??!?!? @#*&!! Happens inmmeasureable amounts of times to me when writing many page emails, General Physics replies, blog and journal posts.... I close the window, the tab, quit the program, or accidently restart the computer!!

So now, anytime I am writing something more than a few paragraphs, I always save it as a .rtf or .txt file on my computer, as "PF Post," or "Wikipedia," or something like that. Yay!
 PF Gold P: 5,459 Relax Mk. I had a safety copy but on another location. Putting it up in a moment.
 P: 2,056 Sorry if I was too erratic and "fast and furious" in that last post.

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