" Kill! Kill! Kill!"


by Bilal
Tags: kill kill kill
Anttech
Anttech is offline
#37
Oct14-05, 07:06 PM
P: 1,401
Then you should treat me the way you expect me to treat you.
I have yet to see you actually add something positive to the part of PF, so excuse me if I think your contributions are weak at the best of times......
Bilal
Bilal is offline
#38
Oct15-05, 12:07 AM
P: 407
Quote Quote by Hurkyl
Bilal: As I said in my response to El Hombre, I do not consider supporting the insurgency an inherently bad thing.
I do call it insurgency; it is resistance against foreign occupation. As person who lived all my life under Israeli occupation, I can say that resistance has bad actions also. Simply, because none can control a nation under foreign occupation including their national leaders, therfore bad people also join the resistance by their unaccepted tactics. Every national resistance through history, e.g. American Revolution or the resistance against the German and Japanese in 2WW made mistakes... the same as Iraqi resistance. The difference between these revolutions and Iraqi resistance is that the Pentagon controls completely the propaganda.

Quote Quote by Hurkyl
Besides, that's not even the thing I care about. I care about the picture you help paint in your opening post: that the insurgency is simply fighting the evil Americans.
You don't have to believe all Americans are evil to help paint that picture. You don't even have to believe any Americans are evil. This picture gets painted because there are people who say "Look at the bad things Americans have done. This is why there's an insurgency!" and that is essentially what you said in your opening post.
Colin Powell admitted that all what he said to justify this war in UN is lies, so this war already immoral …. And after Abu Gharib and Falluja massacres , the picture become clear.

USA government is looking now for reasons to attack Syria and Iran. Furthermore they had already plans to invade their alliance (Egypt and Saudi Arabia). Their strategy in ME is based on spreading fear among hundreds millions of people who do not want to see the destruction of their countries as what happen in Iraq. I will not tell you examples from history, but you can read some books about the history of Europe in 20th century and to check who is the closest to Bush and his team.

Quote Quote by Hurkyl
Now that that's said, I wanted to comment on this (assuming that you agree with the opinion that the occupation is barbaric, and don't mind shifting the thread in this direction):
What do you think the situation would be like if there were no occupiers -- just the current Iraqi government and the militas?
I think you remember what Bush said last year after establishing the new Iraqi goverment …. Suppose Iraq become stable (by force), do you think that will make people to forget the (shock and awe or picture of Abu Gharib)? It is not just about actions, it is the complete strategy which based on imperialism, violence and aggression.
Hurkyl
Hurkyl is offline
#39
Oct15-05, 08:44 AM
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it is resistance against foreign occupation
This is the idealization to which I was referring in my opening post. It's more than resistance against foreign occupation.

Its core activity is a war of attrition against the local authorities and military. (Yes, it appears to me that this is even more pervasive than fighting against the occupying forces)

Another key part of their strategy is aggression against representatives of other nations.

And yet another key part is terrorism against the local populace, attempting to dissuade them from doing things like vote, signing up to join the local police forces, working at foreign-owned establishments, or even just interacting with the occupying forces.

It is these activities that lead me to say that this is not a resistance against foreign occupiers.

If it was just against the Americans and local authorities, I could see a reasonable argument that it's a fight against occupation. The argument gets stretched very thin when you account for the violence against third-party nations. Once you consider the general campaign against the local populace, IMHO it doesn't seem very reasonable at all.

I think you remember what Bush said last year after establishing the new Iraqi goverment
No, I don't. I'm serious when I say I don't listen to the media.

Suppose Iraq become stable (by force), do you think that will make people to forget the (shock and awe or picture of Abu Gharib)?
No, but that's entirely irrelevant. I want Iraq to "become stable (by force)" because I don't want to see it to fall into civil war.

I'll repeat my question:
What do you think the situation would be like if there were no occupiers -- just the current Iraqi government and the militas?

I think it would be civil war, and that would be worse than it is now. I have the hope that Iraq can "become stable (by force)", and then the U.S. could leave Iraq without it falling into civil war.
Gokul43201
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#40
Oct15-05, 09:26 AM
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Quote Quote by Hurkyl
I'll repeat my question:
What do you think the situation would be like if there were no occupiers -- just the current Iraqi government and the militas?
It seems you are making the assumption - or are arguing from the point of view - that "the current govt and the militias" is a better situation that what Iraq had before the occupation.

Also, your argument is indicative that you hold the opinion that it is okay to achieve a "better situation" through means that involve the sacrifice of the right (lives) of some number of people.
Hurkyl
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#41
Oct15-05, 09:41 AM
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It seems you are making the assumption - or are arguing from the point of view - that "the current govt and the militias" is a better situation that what Iraq had before the occupation.
I do have that point of view, and my conviction is probably due to the people who I think might disagree have been avoiding this question.


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