Achieve the Unsaid: What We Were Never Told

[tph666]

I think man can do many things,we were never told we could do these things.Just as easy as your A B C,if nobody showed you would not have a clew A B C?

 

[Justinius]

Clarity please.

 

[Kerrie]

I think man can do many things,we were never told we could do these things.Just as easy as your A B C,if nobody showed you would not have a clew A B C?

yes, we need more clarity in order for this thread to continue.

 

[tph666]

yes, we need more clarity in order for this thread to continue.

I was thinking like superman it sounds a bit nuts but who knows.If we have no clew how to use such powers they will never be used.Well superman is a bit overstated ,well who knows

 

[Mentat]

I was thinking like superman it sounds a bit nuts but who knows.If we have no clew how to use such powers they will never be used.Well superman is a bit overstated ,well who knows

At the risk of sounding like I'm leading you...do you mean to say that we may have abilities that we'll never tap into because someone has let us know that we can't?

 

[Canute]

Well, I presume you mean 'clue'. I agree with you though, as a general point. But I think you should aim a little higher than Superman, who seems to be able to do little more than Father Christmas, and whose scriptwriters seem a touch deficient in the mental department.

 

[tph666]

At the risk of sounding like I'm leading you...do you mean to say that we may have abilities that we'll never tap into because someone has let us know that we can't?

I guess that's what I am saying,if you don't know how to use it it will never be used

 

[etc]

alright, so where does this go? are our powers as humans unlimited via an "open mind"?

 

[tph666]

You could have the most open mind in the world but if you don't know what you can do how can you do it

 

[Mentat]

You could have the most open mind in the world but if you don't know what you can do how can you do it

Well, philosophers still don't know how we know anything, but we still do it .

 

[oneredpanther]

Newton invented (discovered you might argue) Calculus all by himself at the age of 23 without help. I'd say that's +1 contrary to your proposition.

 

[Hat_Man]

I believe that human beings are able to have telepathy, future viewing, and the ability to impact things without touching them. I also think it is all scientifictly explicable, but due to most people's predujaces over what they think is real or simple fantasy they simply say it is impossible. Because of this they never try to achieve these, hence causing 'proof' they cannot be done. Everyone has expierinced the 'supernatural', unfortunatly nearly everyone falling into one of two catagories; those who say it is false and those who say it is magic or otherwordly. It is neither, and those very few who devote themselves to the esotirc and explanation of the nearly inexplicable will have a lonely road ahead of them.

 

[tph666]

I believe that human beings are able to have telepathy, future viewing, and the ability to impact things without touching them. I also think it is all scientifictly explicable, but due to most people's predujaces over what they think is real or simple fantasy they simply say it is impossible. Because of this they never try to achieve these, hence causing 'proof' they cannot be done. Everyone has expierinced the 'supernatural', unfortunatly nearly everyone falling into one of two catagories; those who say it is false and those who say it is magic or otherwordly. It is neither, and those very few who devote themselves to the esotirc and explanation of the nearly inexplicable will have a lonely road ahead of them.

And the reason is nobody ever showed us that we had and could use these powers so we don't understand.I do wonder if 4000 or 5000 ago people knew how to use these powers.Well we would use them for more bad reasons than good anyway.

 

[etc]

You could have the most open mind in the world but if you don't know what you can do how can you do it

takes an open mind for figuring out what one can and cannot do?

call me names, but i don't see the philosophical importance here.

 

[Zantra]

It's the "1984" scenario where everyone's preprogrammed to to do as they're told and because they are unable to think creatively, they don't explore possibilities.

How can you miss chocolate if you never knew chocolate existed?

example: if a child was put in a wheelchair from birth and told that he couldn't walk, even though he could, he could be brainwashed into thinking he couldn't. And if he never thought it was possible, he might live his entire life out never having stood upright.

 

[Hat_Man]

And the reason is nobody ever showed us that we had and could use these powers so we don't understand.I do wonder if 4000 or 5000 ago people knew how to use these powers.Well we would use them for more bad reasons than good anyway.

You are right, nobody did show us, but no one showed us how to calculate mathematics or invent mechanical devices. Some people are simply gifted in these areas and as such know instictivly how to add subract and think logicaly. Once they know the basics by simple instict, natural curiosity drive them to explore more possibilities of these instincts. Some people are more gifted with the esoteric then others and 'odd' things happen around them. Ask yourself, have you ever met anyone who, in a conversation, seems to always know ahead of time what you will say, or those who can know exactly where you are, even when you are miles apart with know logical way of having said knowledge. Everyone has either met these people, or are these people, and it is those who believe what they do is true and not a fraud, those will be the ones to explore further into the 'calculas' of this field.

As for using them for evil more then good I believe they will be like any other talent we have. Some people designed the electrical generator with their intellegence, others biologically create diseases or other instruments of death. What latent talents people have would no more be used for evil then any other tool we have at our means.

 

[Alkatran]

It's the "1984" scenario where everyone's preprogrammed to to do as they're told and because they are unable to think creatively, they don't explore possibilities.

How can you miss chocolate if you never knew chocolate existed?

example: if a child was put in a wheelchair from birth and told that he couldn't walk, even though he could, he could be brainwashed into thinking he couldn't. And if he never thought it was possible, he might live his entire life out never having stood upright.

That's not true at all: Children move their legs all the time. You'd have to numb his legs, etc... This is a bad analogy at best.

As for the whole mindpowers thing: You claim that they aren't used because we don't know how to use them. I claim that they aren't used because they don't exist and people are just fooling themselves.

My claim has Occham's Razor on its side. We both make the same predictions.

 

[Mentat]

As for the whole mindpowers thing: You claim that they aren't used because we don't know how to use them. I claim that they aren't used because they don't exist and people are just fooling themselves.

My claim has Occham's Razor on its side. We both make the same predictions.

Not surprising, since you aren't really making a claim; merely negating one.

Anyway, tph666, just to follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion: how did the first person ever learn anything?

 

[Alkatran]

Not surprising, since you aren't really making a claim; merely negating one.

I see your point. But I suppose Occham's Razor would not apply here, because the two theories don't make the same predictions (my mistake!). This is entirely a decision that should be based on experiments which exlcude one theory but include the other. (If not A then maybe B, go science!)

 

[Hat_Man]

As for the whole mindpowers thing: You claim that they aren't used because we don't know how to use them. I claim that they aren't used because they don't exist and people are just fooling themselves.

I am not claiming that they are not used because we do not know about them. I am claiming they are used by a small minority. They do exist, they are real becuase they have been done, just as much a fact as people walking. The only reason they are thought false is that it appears to be impossible due to our preconcived ideas. The amount of people that have this born talent is so small that it seems to do that no one has it. I know this to be false, and I claim it is always wrong to say something is false because you have not seen. There is nothing more dangerous as that, becuase the essence of any scientist or good thinker is the ability to entertain any thought, any question and any suggestion unless it is proven false.

 

[Alkatran]

I am not claiming that they are not used because we do not know about them. I am claiming they are used by a small minority. They do exist, they are real becuase they have been done, just as much a fact as people walking. The only reason they are thought false is that it appears to be impossible due to our preconcived ideas. The amount of people that have this born talent is so small that it seems to do that no one has it. I know this to be false, and I claim it is always wrong to say something is false because you have not seen. There is nothing more dangerous as that, becuase the essence of any scientist or good thinker is the ability to entertain any thought, any question and any suggestion unless it is proven false.

I don't say it's false because I haven't seen it, I say it's false because it would completely change every science we have (except maybe math). The chance of our science being THAT FAR OFF is very low. But if you can do it under controlled conditions...

 

[tph666]

Not surprising, since you aren't really making a claim; merely negating one.

Anyway, tph666, just to follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion: how did the first person ever learn anything?

I never said we couldn't learn.The point i was trying to make was that everyday man learns new I am just wondering how far we can go.

 

[FoxNax]

I don't say it's false because I haven't seen it, I say it's false because it would completely change every science we have (except maybe math). The chance of our science being THAT FAR OFF is very low. But if you can do it under controlled conditions...

That's an example of being close minded, you don't want to believe that we could do so much more with our minds than what we already know because it would change things, and as a human being, you're afraid of change. Forgive me if I'm speculating but that's how it seems to me. You find most people are afraid of change and not all are willing to accept it.

For example: If you told a man a few hundred years ago that woman would be powerful and sometimes even the stronger of the species (only in some casesthough, as i believe men and women are equal) than he wouldn't want to believe it because it would completely change society, and it has. Society has changed, it has learned that women are just as good as men but it's not bad, it's changed for the better.

Now, before I wander completely off topic, let me associate that with our minds. If our minds do have hidden abilities, why would that change science? And if it changed science, surely it would be for the better?

 

[Hat_Man]

Actual telepathy would not change the laws of science, even telekinesis can be explaned using our laws today. I have looked into this and I can find no discrepency between what you call mindpowers and what is actually real. It can be scientifically explained. If you really want to know I can start a new thread to explain it to you but this is not the place for such a long winded explanation as it would be. I am not talking about summonign demons or pulling fire out of the sky, I am talking about simple things, such as telepathy, telekinies and short term future viewing. I cannot shrug these by saying, oh well, it would be to hard to explain it under our laws as they stand so I won't even try. With that attitude all phenomina would be shrugged off as a mistake or a hoax without ever being researched.

 

[ph]

Nice name Hat Man. Whatja do ... quit rolling your hair?

 

[Zeppelin_Child]

Just because someone disagrees with your "innovative" ideas doesn't mean that they are being closed minded, keep that in mind...

Secondly, I'd like to see a thread about that scientific ecxplination of supernatural powers if it's not too much trouble Hat_Man.

Finally, and I'm keeping all this short because i really need to get to bed, I want to say I don't believe in super natural abilities because I don't think thay are too logical. There is a lot of the human mind that has not been tapped, but I don't think telling the future is in there. No proof, but proof would require conclusive tests of all humans, but I am yet to see proof of these abilities that arn't elaborate hoaxs.

It's natural for humans to explore their own bodies and minds, and I don't think that a lack of widespread telepathy is due to people doubting its existence. Amazing things have been done by poeple through deep meditation and exploration of their own minds, but mind reading is not on the list. Perhaps it will be, but i don't think so.

Edit:Sorry about the atrocious grammar and spelling and such, but I’m in a hurry and I’m not the best typist…

 

[Alkatran]

That's an example of being close minded, you don't want to believe that we could do so much more with our minds than what we already know because it would change things, and as a human being, you're afraid of change. Forgive me if I'm speculating but that's how it seems to me. You find most people are afraid of change and not all are willing to accept it.

For example: If you told a man a few hundred years ago that woman would be powerful and sometimes even the stronger of the species (only in some casesthough, as i believe men and women are equal) than he wouldn't want to believe it because it would completely change society, and it has. Society has changed, it has learned that women are just as good as men but it's not bad, it's changed for the better.

Now, before I wander completely off topic, let me associate that with our minds. If our minds do have hidden abilities, why would that change science? And if it changed science, surely it would be for the better?

Why is it whenever someone brings up physics you get the 'you're afraid of what you don't understand, ETC' I find that insulting, I'm not afraid of change. and if anything, you're scientist is the one who embraces change by creating new theories. People who believe in spirits can explaining EVERYTHING with spirits!

Anyways, The point I'm making is that the probability of these things being true, given what we know of how the world works, is extremely low! Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence! The main thing of science is that if you can SHOW THAT IT WORKS and have it be REPLICATABLE it WILL BE ACCEPTED.

All of these phenomena stop working when controls are applied, what does that say?

 

[saltydog]

You could have the most open mind in the world but if you don't know what you can do how can you do it

We stumble upon it. That's the act of discovery: I once had an old truck I would repair with limited abilities. My philosophy of truck repair? Work on everything. You'll likely find the problem.

Salty

 

[OutofPlace]

Sometimes i have thought about that too, what if we were capable of so many things, but were convinced of the contrary, how could you tap into that power. It has happened many times to me, that i dream of things to come, not Deja Vu, but real dreams. Sometimes its about meaningless things, sometimes important things, I've even had the chance to tell someone before things happen.

What if we all can do that??!

 

[Paul Wilson]

Saltydog - "We stumble upon it. That's the act of discovery: I once had an old truck I would repair with limited abilities. My philosophy of truck repair? Work on everything. You'll likely find the problem."

From an old mechanic I know, he said, the mecahnic does not check over every little thing. The mechanic goes as close to the problem as possible, and tests every other possiblity. Not every other thing.
Now there's some philosophical goodness. ;)

@Comments of reading into the future: I believe it is completely capable by the human mind, but not intentionally. When you seek you can get lost, when you seek somewhere you've never been with no map, for something you don't know, you will definately get lost. (Or we simply don't know what we're looking for) - Telepathy.

If we do read into the future, it is by mistake, not on purpose. I believe that is impossible to see the future by simply "doing so".

My grandmother used to get dreams in her sleep, days, weeks, months before someone else in our family gave birth. It happened every time someone got pregnant, it was consistant. She had the same dream (stairing at a fish tank with a goldfish in it) with my mother, my aunt (That's not the blood family. My uncle is blood family, my aunt is not, my grandmother saw the future for someone not of the same blood relation)

 

[lordinfamous]

And the reason is nobody ever showed us that we had and could use these powers so we don't understand.I do wonder if 4000 or 5000 ago people knew how to use these powers.Well we would use them for more bad reasons than good anyway.

this statement is false IMO. I believe in general people do what we call bad things or evil things for 2 reasons
1.money
2.power
they need money so they can achieve there power but if one has the power that you speak of then you no longer have the need for money! the trick would be too get them to keep their attitudes positive rather then negative.
then you 4 billion GODS walking around Earth wanting to do something with there power. oh well, take it for what its worth!

 

[IntellectIsStrength]

@Comments of reading into the future: I believe it is completely capable by the human mind, but not intentionally. When you seek you can get lost, when you seek somewhere you've never been with no map, for something you don't know, you will definately get lost. (Or we simply don't know what we're looking for) - Telepathy.

If we do read into the future, it is by mistake, not on purpose. I believe that is impossible to see the future by simply "doing so".

The whole concept of being able to percieve the future, to me, seems illogical. I may be wrong, and I'm completely open minded to that, but possessing the ability of percieving the future would indicate that the future is--somewhere, somehow-- already written. And that, to me, seems contrary to the free will that all humans possess. Having the ability to tell someone's past is, in my opinoin, not too illogical and, in fact, possible as it has happened before. Foreseeing the future, however, is something that I do not view as probable or possible.

 

[OutofPlace]

Well, if one were to accept that the ability to perceive the future would eliminate the possibility of free will, then i must deny the existence of the latter; as i said before, i have experienced premonitions all my life, some of which have been undeniable clear and even proven by others.

I guess it would be interesting to discuss the possibility of both, free will and future perception, coexisting.

 

[Paul Wilson]

Also. If you were to see into the future. You would maybe see something bad. You would do something to avoid this.

Thus. Changing the course of the future.

Therefore, there is no ability to see the future, as the future would depend on what you have seen "in the future" and how you go about it.

No?

 

[IntellectIsStrength]

Well, if one were to accept that the ability to perceive the future would eliminate the possibility of free will, then i must deny the existence of the latter; as i said before, i have experienced premonitions all my life, some of which have been undeniable clear and even proven by others.

I guess it would be interesting to discuss the possibility of both, free will and future perception, coexisting.

Interesting. Care to share some of those experiences?