Why do people think physics is so hard?

[Blahness]

I commonly hear the words "Physics" and "Genius" combined in many sentences, which seems to be a bit of a misnomer, considering that most of physics is rather simple, and only gets complicated once you have to apply hundreds of possible changing factors in a problem.

Or am I just being pompous? X.x

 

[inha]

I commonly hear the words "Physics" and "Genius" combined in many sentences, which seems to be a bit of a misnomer, considering that most of physics is rather simple, and only gets complicated once you have to apply hundreds of possible changing factors in a problem.

If by most of physics you mean your average HS-level or intro level at university physics then yeah, I suppose it is quite simple if you have the right kind of analytical mind. But that's not most of physics. It doesn't even scratch the surface.

 

[Blahness]

So I'm being naive.

Thought so. thank you.

 

[marlon]

I commonly hear the words "Physics" and "Genius" combined in many sentences, which seems to be a bit of a misnomer, considering that most of physics is rather simple, and only gets complicated once you have to apply hundreds of possible changing factors in a problem.

Or am I just being pompous? X.x

IMO, the most difficult aspect in physics is the fact that you need to translate a real time event into a mathematical formalism. This requires some "abstraction" intelligence. But indeed most theories start from a rather simple but ingenious realisation like for example the equivalence principle: when a 80 kg male jumps out of a window, he feel like his weight is 0 kg. What does this apparent contradiction imply ?

So not only do you need to start from an ingenious and simple idea, you also need to translate it into hardcore mathematics.


marlon

 

[Dmstifik8ion]

It's all relative to the reference frame.

 

[quasar987]

I think learning physics is hard compared to mathematics because in a physics textbook, a minimum of explanation is usually given to justify an equation. So to understand it really, you have to do the in-btw steps, which are somtimes very complicated, and other times you simply don't have enough information to do the steps and you're just wasting your time.

The best example of this taken from my life is when I tried to understand Optics. There are tons of approximations made btw equations and you have to find them and justify them if you're to understand the subject (imo). I would often spend an entire day studying a single page of the book. Of course, at university level, it is not permissible to take so much time to learn material so I had to stop. As a result, I feel I know nothing more about optics than before I took the class. Well look at that I'm ranting again.

 

[Hurkyl]

I think that a lot of people don't realize that problem solving is a skill. They think they're supposed to be learning nothing but math in their math classes, learning nothing but physics in their physics classes, et cetera. So, these people never learn how to solve problems.

 

[quasar987]

What do you mean Hurkyl? In the classes you learn new material, then you are sent home to do homework. This is when you develop your problem solving skills. It is like that since you began school in the first grade.

 

[D H]

I think learning physics is hard compared to mathematics because in a physics textbook, a minimum of explanation is usually given to justify an equation.

You obviously have not come across the oft-stated remark in math texts and papers, "it is obvious that ...".

back on topic:

Physics and math are abstract. Simple word problems are the start of most people's misery. Physics and math require abstract thinking and creative problem-solving skills. Most of the engineers that I have studied and worked with have their thoughts bound in concrete. They tend to want plug-and-chug (their words, not mine) methods for solving technical problems.

I disagree that the typical homework problems assigned from the first-grade on stress problem-solving skills. Very few homework problems even stress finding and using the appropriate plug-and-chug technique.

 

[Pengwuino]

I think that a lot of people don't realize that problem solving is a skill. They think they're supposed to be learning nothing but math in their math classes, learning nothing but physics in their physics classes, et cetera. So, these people never learn how to solve problems.

Welcome to my math experience. In the last... probably 3 semesters, I've had 4 real life problems presented? My physics studies is better though. The current course I am taking is probably going to end this whole idea of physics being physics and math being math.

 

[Hurkyl]

What do you mean Hurkyl? In the classes you learn new material, then you are sent home to do homework. This is when you develop your problem solving skills. It is like that since you began school in the first grade.

Yes, but you learn the material and how to solve these problems. People don't seem to bother learning how to solve problems in general.

I can't count the number of times I've had to suggest "What's the definition of that term?" when someone is completely stuck on a problem... and sometimes writing down the definition turns out to be all they need to do.

I think some people focus so much on "Okay, I need to do this step, then this step, etc." and never bother to wonder about things like "Why would I think to use this step?"

Then, they learn new things, and are expected to be able to apply the most basic of problem solving techniques to work out the simple things for themselves... and become completely lost.

 

[russ_watters]

I agree with Hurkyl - in high school, I took calc I and physics I at the same time in high school and being able to relate them helped me learn both.

edit: However, the math just gets harder after that...

 

[Michael_E]

So not only do you need to start from an ingenious and simple idea, you also need to translate it into hardcore mathematics.
marlon

I think that this is it in a nutshell. To take an ingenious idea, translate it into parts that can be described by mathematics, churn those equations around for a while and have it all relate accurately to something verifiable really does take the insight of genius as well as a tremendous amount of determination. The need to doggedly stick with an idea and see it through is what makes it really tough. There are plenty of people rolling around with high I.Q.'s, but you don't see many of them doing exceptional things.

This difficulty seems to be one of the big problems with people who want to understand this better and don't have the math background to "see" what the math points at. I don't even think that some ideas can be "thought" without using math to "think" them, since they are so far from our physical experience that there are no accurate analogies available to form those ideas. This is the basis for confusion about things like wave/particle duality, multiple dimensions and the need of some people to try to argue points in language when there would be fewer arguments if they could express those ideas with math, (here they either work or they don't). Very, very hard to move from everyday experience to that sort of mathematical imagination where you can actually relate the math to a vision in your mind and have it be in accord with what is known about reality. I have always wondered if those people who are deeply involved in expanding into new ideas feel as if they are writing "mathematical fiction", ( a plot, a few "characters" and hopefully a good ending), when they are developing their ideas and trying to tie it all to something that is "real" and testable.

 

[vanesch]

I commonly hear the words "Physics" and "Genius" combined in many sentences, which seems to be a bit of a misnomer, considering that most of physics is rather simple, and only gets complicated once you have to apply hundreds of possible changing factors in a problem.

We, physicists, try very hard to continue to promote this picture. It's our trade mark, you see...:tongue:

 

[Blahness]

vanesch: Seems more like a signature of profession than a trademark, <laugh>.

Problem Solving, aka Applied Problems, are very rare in most of my math classes.

But when we get them, they take about... 3 seconds longer than a "normal" math problem. The 3 seconds involves writing down the information that is given, and figuring out what the question is actually asking.

However, many students in my graduation-required physics have issues applying the math they know into real-life situations. As Hurkyl (implied? I tend to misinterpret), they seem to be inable to figure out the "why", or how to translate worded information into an equation.

Speaking of which, what's the best way to go about proving that I should be in an AP physics class, instead of this normal one? I'm extremely bored intellectually, especially knowing that we're not learning anything more advanced then Newtonian motion and thermodynamics. X.x'

"Conceptual Physics" is what it's called, and very light on the math, regular physics class usually is.

</YodaIam>

 

[quasar987]

Go see your teacher. Once he sees you're Yoda, he'll understand you've already mastered the concept of force. *po-dom pshhh!*

 

[Blahness]

Unfortunately, he has a mosaic of Yoda posted on the side of his classroom, and I'm about 3.2 times less ugly then the picture, so that wouldn't pass.

X.x'

 

[Pengwuino]

But when we get them, they take about... 3 seconds longer than a "normal" math problem. The 3 seconds involves writing down the information that is given, and figuring out what the question is actually asking.

As opposed to physics where it takes 3 seconds to solve the questin and 5 days to figure out what the hell you're trying to figure out :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Mmx]

Actually i think physics is harder then any subject? Cause 1 of them is using the right formula and term when solving the question. Actually getting the answer is not the point. The point is to understand the question and how to solve it and why.

Im starting to become crazy said my fren cost read too much of physics. I wonder how a good professor of physics teacher attitude looks like? But honestly i never got good grades for my physics and always get close mark to fail.

 

[Kazza_765]

Applied problem solving is why I almost failed second year maths at Uni. Not because I can't do it, but because there wasn't any of it. We would get questions like 'Use xxxxxx's method to solve yyyyyy' and so on, or else it would be completely obvious what method is needed to solve the problem. Solving problems like this IMO requires no intelligence, all you are doing is going through a bunch of steps you have been taught in class, its like a friggin algorithm. The only way you can get it wrong is if you can't remember one of the steps, or you make a silly numerical error. So I just lost interest and stopped going.

 

[kant]

I commonly hear the words "Physics" and "Genius" combined in many sentences, which seems to be a bit of a misnomer, considering that most of physics is rather simple, and only gets complicated once you have to apply hundreds of possible changing factors in a problem.

Or am I just being pompous? X.x

I don t think physic( or math ) should be that hard. Perhaps, the problem is more to do with the teachers or the books in explaning.

 

[Pengwuino]

I don t think physic( or math ) should be that hard. Perhaps, the problem is more to do with the teachers or the books in explaning.

Subjects are hard or easy based on what the subject is, not what people think it should be.

 

[kant]

Subjects are hard or easy based on what the subject is, not what people think it should be.

Hmm... Well, what subject is hard? Even the most complicated ideas has an origin. Many "abstract" ideas could be understood in the most simpliest terms. I think people are just making things complicated for themselves.

 

[Hurkyl]

I don t think physic( or math ) should be that hard. Perhaps, the problem is more to do with the teachers or the books in explaning.

But not, say, students' attitudes towards the subject?

 

[Pengwuino]

Hmm... Well, what subject is hard? Even the most complicated ideas has an origin. Many "abstract" ideas could be understood in the most simpliest terms. I think people are just making things complicated for themselves.

Understanding something in physics is like, 0.1% of the problem. People don't earn Phd's because they understand a lot about physics, they receive them because they KNOW physics. These people can do incredible calculations and find so much information and make these predictions. One time my professor noted certain calculations he had to do as a graduate student that literally took weeks to do.

I think one of the last things physicists do is go around looking to make things MORE complicated then they already are. Reminds me of Einstein...

 

[kant]

But not, say, students' attitudes towards the subject?

Hmm... perhaps the student attitude might have an effect.

 

[kant]

Understanding something in physics is like, 0.1% of the problem.

what type of understand do you mean? The type of the understand for me is being able to see the physics in the equatons. Equations themselves are like physicals analogies. It is probable the worse thing to do is to try to apply a math equation blindly. For example, I can imagine faradays law as being: a magnatic flux tho a close loop of wire would induce an E field around it. The idea is very simply, and the explanation is short. There are longer explaintion of course, but it would still be finite in extents. if i was little more curious, i would ask questions like the direction of the induce E field, or what happen when the area the loop are changes etc.. A verbal would never be able to convey the profunity and the extensive reach of all the implication of faradays law. This is why i think understand is being able to see the physics within equations. Does that mean thinking purely in equations? no.

 

[sbalian]

I'm not too sure about physics at the post-graduate level, but this is what I think based on my experience doing undergraduate physics.

Firstly, mathematical competence is essential in physics. Most people who struggle with the maths find physics difficult. Secondly, physics text should be read slowly and critically and one should not rush to the conclusions. As long as you're good in maths and develop a stepwise approach towards any kind of problem, you won't struggle much with the physics. Those who lack these skills find physics difficult.

Seto

 

[pivoxa15]

In high school and undergrad university and speaking on behalf of the mainstream population, the reason why most students find physics is hard is because they don't understand the mathematics (which at those levels also means problem solving, including not knowing the importance of knowing the definitions). However, if a student understands the maths than the physics should come out easily, provided the student is keen at physics. In this way, good at maths => good at physics but not necessaily vice versa. Hence mathematics is actually harder than physics.

The hardest physics I have done is electromagnetism with vector calculus. My vector calculus is shaky at best and as a result I did very poorly in that subject and still feel I do not understand electromagnetism even after the course. However, I could undertand the first year course on electromagnetism because the maths was much simpler.

The answer to why people think physics is so hard is because people think maths is so hard.

 

[Moonbear]

But not, say, students' attitudes towards the subject?

I think that has a LOT to do with it, the same with math classes. For some reason, people tell kids those are hard classes, so they go into it thinking it's going to be hard, and surprise, they then think it's hard.

I think the real difference between students who will succeed or not succeed in these classes is that those who succeed look at a "hard" class as a challenge to be tackled, while those who don't succeed are the ones who use "it's supposed to be hard" as an excuse to not try very hard at all. Of course there are people who just haven't yet developed their analytical thinking skills, so aren't ready for these classes.

And, I agree with the earlier comments on lack of problem solving skills. Part of this seems to stem from kids being handed their homework "problems" to solve, and they think if they can mimic the steps the teacher took to solve very similar problems in class, that they know how to solve problems. There's not much emphasis put on solving novel problems. And, this isn't something that should be covered in only math and science classes. This is a general life skill that really needs to be developed in everyone. But, the reality is that many people never learn that skill.

I can relate to this in my daily work. A lot of what distinguishes those who run labs from those who just work in labs is their level of problem solving skills. The problems that come my way aren't neat little textbook questions, they're real world problems with no fixed solution; you have to assess what the problem is, what might be causing it, and hunt through your mental toolbox for something that might work to solve it.

 

[moose]

I remember when I was making a program in which I modeled a human eye to follow the movements of the mouse at a set depth. To make it look accurate to life, I had to make it so that the size of the iris changed, and so that it would "stretch" or actually shrink kinda, when it got to the sides, and so forth. I didn't want to use any trig in the program, so I used some vector stuff. Several students in the class were amazed that I was actually able to apply something that I learned in a math class.

 

[JasonRox]

What bothers me the most is people who major in Mathematics and Physics, and talk as if they're extraordinary people and are super intelligent just because of their major.

 

[FrogPad]

I commonly hear the words "Physics" and "Genius" combined in many sentences, which seems to be a bit of a misnomer, considering that most of physics is rather simple, and only gets complicated once you have to apply hundreds of possible changing factors in a problem.

Or am I just being pompous? X.x

I think most people associate 'genius' with physics, because of the amount of time that must be invested in the subject. I can only speak for myself here, but I feel (and I think most others do) that it takes time to absorb the material and believe in it. The ideas are very abstract, and simply take time to partially comprehend (let alone fully).

I mean how can one just be introduced to emag. and understand it the first go around. The concept of electric fields are somewhat daunting, but you begin to appreciate them later. I mean if you can visualize electric fields, and the superposition of many sources without a lot of practice then all I have to say is damn. For example the concept of mutual inductance took me awhile before I could actually grasp it. Yeah I could somewhat understand it in an introductory physics course, but not really... it wasn't until I actually understood the math until it really made sense. It's not necessarily 'hard', it just takes TIME (at least it does for me). The same can be said for playing a musical instrument, learning to paint, etc... it's hard because it requires investment, and some people just can't do it.

 

[bomba923]

Hmm...
From my experience,

1) When students/teachers/people say a class is "hard"...
the students tend to lower their standards/expectations and performance somewhat.
Consequently, they don't do too well...and call the class "hard". (*The cycle begins anew.*)

2) Blahness--you are a high school student, right?

So then, the question should be
"Why do people think HS physics is hard?"

Quite an interesting misjudgment on the side of those people...
but all I'll comment on here (for now ) is the sorry state of
American public grade school education
(and some of your other threads
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=99844
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=96967
and one of mine
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=104494)

 

[Robert Mak]

What bothers me the most is people who major in Mathematics and Physics, and talk as if they're extraordinary people and are super intelligent just because of their major.

Me too!