Socialist USA finally Solves unemployment problem.

[Mercator]

It's so easy to sloganize. But I can prove that the US is more socialist than the EU.

 

[Smurf]

go on, prove it.

 

[Locrian]

If you could, then why haven't you?

 

[chroot]

What's wrong with being socialist?

- Warren

 

[wasteofo2]

The US is Socialist alright, but I don't know about more Socialist (by more Socialist, I assume you mean farther from Capitalism and closer to Communism) than the EU. But then agian, I don't know a great deal about the EU...

 

[PerennialII]

more socialist than the EU, hope not for EU's sake ... I'd be interested in seeing the proof.

 

[Locrian]

It seems this proof is not forthcoming...

 

[wasteofo2]

Well the USA definitely IS Socialist, the kicker is just that it's more Socialist than the EU.

Workers unions, progressive tax systems, welfare, medicare, social security, anti-trust laws etc. However, most EU nations have more extensive garunteed health care for everyone, more progressive tax rates, and more social programs,

 

[GENIERE]

...However, most EU nations have more extensive garunteed health care for everyone, more progressive tax rates, and more social programs,

Your quote should read -The average person in the EU receives more extensive, guaranteed mediocre health care compared to the average US citizen, higher tax rates for all, and more social programs.

Got me on the last.


...

 

[wasteofo2]

Your quote should read -The average person in the EU receives more extensive, guaranteed mediocre health care compared to the average US citizen, higher tax rates for all, and more social programs.

...

That's Socialism for ya', everyone gets decent stuff, wheras in Capitalism, lots of people get nothing, lots of people get bad stuff, and lots of people get good stuff.

 

[GENIERE]

QUOTE=wasteofo2]That's Socialism for ya', everyone gets decent stuff, wheras in Capitalism, lots of people get nothing, lots of people get bad stuff, and lots of people get good stuff.[/QUOTE]

This enlightening statement makes me want to move to a EU nation where I could enjoy decent stuff while receiving mediocre health care. Of course I have to make my move quickly as lots of stuff is rapidly becoming lots less of stuff. Pyramid schemes tend to do that in the long term unless there’s a high birth rate. Of course the babies will eventually need a job, so they’ll have to move to the US, or China and India where more and more stuff is becoming available. Aw-shucks, I’ll just stay in the States where I, my family, my friends, everyone has access to the very beast health in the world. Every state in the Union provides free healthcare for those who cannot afford it; ask the nearest illegal alien suffering from nitroglycerin headaches.

In truth, Belgium does provide good health care (lots of private stuff there). Good enough to be an incentive for their tourist industry. The country attracts patients from other less fortunate EU countries. Get well then tour the country. Maybe we’ll see Belgium owned health care franchises in France, England, Germany… Probably not, the tourist lobby is quite powerful. But then again, the Belgium national debt is 102% of the nations GDP (vs. US 64%) so the country really could use the money.

..

 

[PerennialII]

Don't really know where you're picking your info, but the last time this was discussed the health care system of the US wasn't anything but a big mess compared to many "socialist" systems out there.

 

[franznietzsche]

It's so easy to sloganize. But I can prove that the US is more socialist than the EU.

Coming from a guy in china.

The irony makes my sides ache, and my lungs beg for air.

 

[franznietzsche]

The US is Socialist alright, but I don't know about more Socialist (by more Socialist, I assume you mean farther from Capitalism and closer to Communism) than the EU. But then agian, I don't know a great deal about the EU...

No, the democrats are socialist.

Get it right already.

 

[GENIERE]

Don't really know where you're picking your info, but the last time this was discussed the health care system of the US wasn't anything but a big mess compared to many "socialist" systems out there.

Discussions are nice but facts are better when dealing with the real world

http://www.techcentralstation.com/090303D.html

Karen Hoehn is a health policy and systems analyst in Brussels

“…Leading health management trade newsletters in Europe now read much like comparable U.S. newsletters ten to 15 years ago, with articles focusing on healthcare outcomes and cost containment, re-integration of fragmented systems, introduction of capitation, Quality Adjusted Life Years, and so on. The Diagnostic Related Groups (DRGs) recently established for hospital payment in Germany have been used by the U.S. federal Medicare program since the 1980s…”

“…Extensive studies of healthcare quality in the U.S. have found no significant evidence of overall declines in quality in the past two decades, despite anecdotal evidence often presented in the press. And, despite panicky news reports about Americans being lazy and fat, major health indicators have improved steadily over time. Infant mortality has dropped and life expectancy has increased. Use of preventive care, e.g., prenatal, mammograms for breast cancer screening, influenza immunization among the elderly, has increased. Cigarette smoking has almost disappeared, an accomplishment David Byrne, the European Commission's top guy for public health, must dream about…”

“…Whatever Europeans may think about the U.S. healthcare system, it has been an excellent laboratory for testing the best and worst ways to pay for, provide and manage health services. Smart Europeans will meet with leading U.S. healthcare companies, and the state and local policymakers that hired them, to learn what works and what does not…”

..

 

[Kalimaa23]

This enlightening statement makes me want to move to a EU nation where I could enjoy decent stuff while receiving mediocre health care...

In truth, Belgium does provide good health care (lots of private stuff there). Good enough to be an incentive for their tourist industry. The country attracts patients from other less fortunate EU countries. Get well then tour the country. Maybe we’ll see Belgium owned health care franchises in France, England, Germany… Probably not, the tourist lobby is quite powerful. But then again, the Belgium national debt is 102% of the nations GDP (vs. US 64%) so the country really could use the money.

What makes you say that the quality of European health-care is mediocre, beside your being biased towards all things left wing/European?

You say that Belgium has a good heath care system. That is correct, if I remember correctly it even has the best in the word, according the a UN report. You once again show your bias, and jump to the conclusion that this because we have "lots of private stuff".
Belgium has one of the least privatised health-care systems in Europe, thanks to the Socialists party's almost continuesly being in the government for the last 50 years. Many hospitals, in particular the academic ones (almost free state-sponsored education, remember?) are excellent, and for most cases almost 90% of the cost is paid back BY THE STATE. In fact, in most professions you are required to be part of the so-called "mutuals" (be they socialist, catholic, liberal or free), who are state-paid and will pay back most of your medical costs.

And as for national debt, the Belgian national debt has been declining steadily for the last 15 years. Can you say the same about the US's?

 

[Mercator]

Thank you all for helping me make my point. And that is: discussions like this one on socialism, or "more" socialism make no sense as long as the term is not even well defined. For some here, it would be communism if a government provides healthcare to people who cannot afford it and for others socialism is living together in a commune. are we talking about a political way to organize society or about the an economic system? So what does a "Socialist EU" really mean? Does it make any more sense than "Socialist US"? Isn't Bush a socialist when he wants to spread democracy all over the world? And why do people suddenly forget their own prejudice when they have to compare Chirac ( a right wing nationalist) to Blair ( a socialist). So whenever someone here comes up with the "socialist EU" or such here, I wish the reaction would be to define the issue that's being discussed first and for the ones that are unable to do that and for example cannjot even distinguish between Kerry, a socialist and a communist: go painting a wall or something.

 

[Mercator]

Coming from a guy in china.

The irony makes my sides ache, and my lungs beg for air.

Well people don't always get my irony, so thanks for your understanding. On the other hand, it is clear for all who live in China that China is much LESS socialist than the US. It is a dictatorship with a red flag as a symbol, purely by coincidence.

 

[Mercator]

A few teasers: labour day, the sacred day for workers all over the world and one of the three official Chinese holidays, has it's origin in the US. (That is, if we are discussing "socialism" as a worker's movement)

In every company I worked for, the American branch ( I talk about three multinationals) was the least productive (revenue/manpower), had the highest labour and related social costs and the highest sickleave. (That is, if we are discussing "socialism" as a way to organize society)

 

[vanesch]

“…Whatever Europeans may think about the U.S. healthcare system, it has been an excellent laboratory for testing the best and worst ways to pay for, provide and manage health services. Smart Europeans will meet with leading U.S. healthcare companies, and the state and local policymakers that hired them, to learn what works and what does not…”

And the same can be said in the other way. I think that good systems try to get organized in a way which is not based upon silly ideology (capitalist - socialist - communist - anarchist ...) but makes a mix of several possible ways of organizing things so that it is fair, provides security, tries to respect the choice of the individual, tries to provide the best quality and efficiency and all that for an acceptable cost. Parts of it will be left to private initiative, parts of it will have to be organized/financed by the state (because in order to be fair, some redistribution of ressources will be necessary) and some feedback mechanisms will be necessary in order to keep the costs to a reasonable level.

I have been labeled "liberal" here (by Americans, which means for them I guess "socialist" - it is funny how terminology is inverse in Europe: liberal is capitalist right wing in Europe). I can tell you that I recognize myself in neither because I think that to stick first to a principle, and then think about it is silly, and I think that there are things that are best solved by a "capitalist" approach, others by a more "socialist" approach, some probably by a artist approach and others by an "anarchist" approach :tongue: Maybe one day we will need a stalinist or a nazi approach... and maybe some day we will have to think by ourselves !

 

[Kalimaa23]

... and maybe some day we will have to think by ourselves !

Three huzzahs for this man! Smartest thing I've ever seen posted on this forum

 

[franznietzsche]

Well people don't always get my irony, so thanks for your understanding. On the other hand, it is clear for all who live in China that China is much LESS socialist than the US. It is a dictatorship with a red flag as a symbol, purely by coincidence.

Oh, i agree completely.

However, i disagree that the US is a socialist country. More socialist than China, sure. Truly socialist no. The moment it is, i'll be on my way out faster than light itself.

To be more accurate, about half the country are "socialist dolts and flatheads", and the other half are bible-thumping lunatics. And I, the atheist economic (couldn't find a good adjective for extreme conservatism other than "nazi") conservative, am just about screwed by both.

Love my country, hate the people in it. On both sides of the political fence.

 

[member 5645]

In every company I worked for, the American branch ( I talk about three multinationals) was the least productive (revenue/manpower), had the highest labour and related social costs and the highest sickleave. (That is, if we are discussing "socialism" as a way to organize society)

Wow, unsubstantiated claims from personal experience, meant to degrade American output.
How about we put some overall numbers to actual American output (if you truly want to TRY to use work style to label something as socialist):

USA GDP $11,000 Billion
Per capita GDP ~$34,000
Work week in USA: 40 hours
Holiday entitlement in USA: ZERO
Average time taken off: 2 weeks

Work week in France: 35 hours
Holiday entitlement in France: two and a half days holiday per month worked -5 weeks per year


EDIT- I'm not France Bashing, pick any EU country. I am overly disgusted by the generalizations in this thread. Can we atleast pull some numbers instead of saying "This is better! nu uh, this is!"

 

[loseyourname]

lUSA GDP $11,000 Billion

Is there any particular reason you didn't write that as $11 trillion?

 

[Smurf]

Don't forget 2 hour lunch breaks!

 

[franznietzsche]

EDIT- I'm not France Bashing, pick any EU country. I am overly disgusted by the generalizations in this thread. Can we atleast pull some numbers instead of saying "This is better! nu uh, this is!"

But then they'd break the first rule of politics: Ignore reality until you're right.

 

[member 5645]

Is there any particular reason you didn't write that as $11 trillion?

GDP's are commonly, and for ease of comparison should be, referred to in billions.
Many smaller countries can never dream of having a GDP in the trillions so comparison becomes difficult.
When I say that a country like the U.A.E has a GDP of 55 billion, it really puts it in perspective when you see 11,000 billion.
That's why.

 

[Mercator]

Oh, i agree completely.

However, i disagree that the US is a socialist country. More socialist than China, sure. Truly socialist no. The moment it is, i'll be on my way out faster than light itself.

To be more accurate, about half the country are "socialist dolts and flatheads", and the other half are bible-thumping lunatics. And I, the atheist economic (couldn't find a good adjective for extreme conservatism other than "nazi") conservative, am just about screwed by both.

Love my country, hate the people in it. On both sides of the political fence.

Off course, the US is not a socialist country and neither is any of the present EU countries or the EU as a whole. The whole political vocabulary is messed up and what we need is a universal and clear definition of these terms before we discuss them. My understanding of socialism is as a political system, a way of organizing society. You can then still discuss if it is a system on it's own or, like communists see it, a first step towards a communist society. This has NOTHING to do with the "social" elements in the government of EU countries as well as in the US. I think to a certain level we all agree with them, though some of us may have problems with the term"social". After all the US saw the "Socialist" USSR as it's biggest enemy for a long time and that clearly had an effect on their state of mind. (A bit like the steam coming out of my grandfather's ears when I bought my first "German" car) Statements as "the socialist EU" are insane and in reality the socialist parties in Europe are often less "social" than f.e. some"liberals" in the US.
Europe and the US have been built on the sweat of generations of hard working people. Only 100 years ago working people in Europe were fighting to get basic "social" rights. They have laid the basis of our (imperfect) societies and I am grateful for that and so should most of us on this board. But I am sick of being called a "socialist" when in fact I am a hard working, conservative executive in a big company. Vanesch is right when he says we have to think for ourselves, but some people seem to have pre-arranged catagories in their brain and words like "China" or "anti- Iraq war" automatically open the "socialist" box. Well, sorry for simplism, but it's more complicated than that. I have had personal mail from a guy on this board, saying : " so, you're a communist" simply because I live in China. And this guy called himself a professor, the American elite!

 

[Mercator]

Love my country, hate the people in it. On both sides of the political fence.

I have several American colleagues and friends with very balanced opinions, (I have met some real extreme rednecks too). Perhaps people with international exposure have a broader mind. But then some of them must be communists because they live in China...

 

[franznietzsche]

I have several American colleagues and friends with very balanced opinions, (I have met some real extreme rednecks too). Perhaps people with international exposure have a broader mind. But then some of them must be communists because they live in China...

Oh I'm very extremist, I'm just not left or right extremist.