Can we learn from past terrorism and prevent future attacks?

[Loren Booda]

Now that the United States has been absolutely victimized by terror, what lessons can we learn from terrorism in history and elsewhere? Was our Achilles heal complacency, and is it still? Do you have personal experience with terrorism that could enlighten civilized people around the world?

 

[Gokul43201]

In my opinion, the Achilles heel is the ignorance and lack of appreciation for things outside this country.

 

[studentx]

Terrorism isn't new, but this kinda apocalyptic terrorism is. There are no demands that can ever be met, often there are no demands at all. In a democracy, terrorism and violence always benefits the terrorists.

 

[Adam]

Every example of terrorism I'm aware of has been accompanied by demands.

 

[Robert Zaleski]

In my opinion, the Achilles heel is the ignorance and lack of appreciation for things outside this country.

Who would you like us to emulate the Red Chinese, the French, or maybe the North Korean's...fine templates all.

 

[graphic7]

I don't think terrorism is new at all. It's a form of a rebellion, but more apocalyptic as studentx said. Al Qaeda or any of the other terrorist cells don't have the abillity to compete with any country on the battlefield by means of traditional warfare, so they resort to terrorism, which you can't blame them for.

 

[studentx]

Every example of terrorism I'm aware of has been accompanied by demands.

What was the demand of 911? Or the two russian airliners that were blown?

 

[Robert Zaleski]

I don't think terrorism is new at all. It's a form of a rebellion, but more apocalyptic as studentx said. Al Qaeda or any of the other terrorist cells don't have the abillity to compete with any country on the battlefield by means of traditional warfare, so they resort to terrorism, which you can't blame them for.

You make it sound like these people are on some noble cause. I wouldn't call people killing children in Beslan, Russia and Tel Aviv, Israel noble, I'd call them desperate murderers.

 

[russ_watters]

What was the demand of 911? Or the two russian airliners that were blown?

Bin Laden has made a number of demands, most along the lines of convert to islam or we'll kill all of you.

 

[russ_watters]

Al Qaeda or any of the other terrorist cells don't have the abillity to compete with any country on the battlefield by means of traditional warfare, so they resort to terrorism, which you can't blame them for. [emphasis added]

Since when is desperation a legitimate defense for murder?

 

[studentx]

Bin Laden has made a number of demands, most along the lines of convert to islam or we'll kill all of you.

Did he make it following 911? I didnt see it. Neither did i see any demands for the russian airliners that were blown, it was in fact denied by those responsible.

 

[Adam]

Or the two russian airliners that were blown?

The Russians out of their country.

What was the demand of 911?

Here:

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

 

[Adam]

Continued:

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possesses such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

 

[russ_watters]

Did he make it following 911? I didnt see it.

Yes, he did. he made a number of tapes shortly after 9/11 with demands.

Neither did i see any demands for the russian airliners that were blown, it was in fact denied by those responsible.

That's correct. AFAIK, there was no claim of responsibility, so obviously, no demends.

Terrorism used to be more similar to kidnapping for ransom: hijack a plane and demand the release of jailed comrades or we'll shoot some hostages, for example. You are right in that these days murder itself is the primary goal.

 

[Adam]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/24/world/main638203.shtml
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5810127/
http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=40&sid=116028

 

[studentx]

Adam, mind telling us what the point of those links is?

 

[Dissident Dan]

What's the difference between anti-West islamic terrorism and the crusades? Fewer combatants?

----------------------

Haven't most wars been accompanied by raping, pillaging, and razing? Wouldn't that qualify as terrorism, especially if the intent is psychological in nature?

 

[kat]

What's the difference between anti-West islamic terrorism and the crusades? Fewer combatants?

----------------------

Haven't most wars been accompanied by raping, pillaging, and razing? Wouldn't that qualify as terrorism, especially if the intent is psychological in nature?

Well...Dan, since you're obviously informed...what was the first crusade in response to? That should clarify the difference and the similarities...and well..the parallels as well... (I'm having a flashback to our days on the religion forum )

 

[Adam]

Those links point to news stories involving people claiming responsibility for the events in Russia.

 

[graphic7]

We're forgetting a few things.

Between the USSR and the US, plenty of murder happened in the 70's and 80's in the middle east. The USSR and the US decided to get involved in the Middle East, and in doing so they were responsible for quite a few deaths. If we never got involved in Middle Eastern affairs, would terrorism exist today?

 

[russ_watters]

If we never got involved in Middle Eastern affairs, would terrorism exist today?

Certainly, since a significant fraction of the middle-eastern terrorism is not directed at the US. What disturbs me is the rise of terrorism in the middle east appears to be a co-ordinated shift in tactics by anti-Israel and anti-western elements. While the west has continually tightened the rules of war to protect civilians, those elements in the middle east have shifted their tactics to specifically attack civilians.

 

[JohnDubYa]

graphic, how about citing some specific examples so that we can at least consider them in their proper context.

 

[studentx]

Those links point to news stories involving people claiming responsibility for the events in Russia.

And it was an act of revenge, there was no demand.

 

[Adam]

Once again: Russians out of Chechnya.

 

[graphic7]

For example, the US gave chemical weapons to Iraq in 1983 (?) to use against Iran. Donald Rumsfeld, from what I've seen, was the chief negotiator in this weapons deal.

Example 2: US gets involved in the attempt at Afghan liberation from the USSR. We gave weapons (RPGs and such) to the Afghans to fight the Russians, also around 1980.

Has anyone heard of a terrorist attack in China, Japan, or any of the other South American countries (with the exception of Chili, Paraguay, and Columbia) lately? When I say terrorist attack, I mean a terrorist attack conducted by an Islamic fundamentalist or other Middle Eastern group.

 

[JohnDubYa]

For example, the US gave chemical weapons to Iraq in 1983 (?) to use against Iran. Donald Rumsfeld, from what I've seen, was the chief negotiator in this weapons deal.

Well, show us what you've seen, because I am unaware of any such negotiation. From what I understand, the US gave Iraq some chemicals that were later used to create chemical weapons. And I don't think Rumsfeld had anything to do with it. I could be wrong, of course.

As for Afghanistan, I would hardly call the US' involvement murder. And isn't Afghanistan in the Orient, not the Middle East?

 

[Smurf]

Afghanistan is in the Middle East and Southern Asia. DubYa you got plenty of evidence in previous threads about US involvment in Iraq. Stop being difficult.
It makes absolutely no difference if they were given the Chemicals and then made weapons or were given the weapons pre-built. Don't think for a minute that the USA didnt know what Saddam was going to do with them.

Has anyone heard of a terrorist attack in China, Japan, or any of the other South American countries (with the exception of Chili, Paraguay, and Columbia) lately? When I say terrorist attack, I mean a terrorist attack conducted by an Islamic fundamentalist or other Middle Eastern group.

I havn't heard anything... Have you?

 

[JohnDubYa]

Afghanistan is in the Middle East and Southern Asia. DubYa you got plenty of evidence in previous threads about US involvment in Iraq. Stop being difficult.

I asked in another thread about direct evidence that Rumsfeld, or the US governmet for that matter, sold chemical weapons to Iraq. I got nothing. In fact, I posted a source from the US-hating The Guardian that implied the US did no such thing. Do you have the evidence?

It makes absolutely no difference if they were given the Chemicals and then made weapons or were given the weapons pre-built.

From what I understand, the chemicals were pesticides and US officials expressed dismay that Saddam used them to attack people. But I could be wrong. Do you have any evidence to show that the US sold chemicals or chemical weapons to Iraq for Saddam to use as chemical weapons.

I havn't heard anything... Have you?

Not that I am aware of, but I'm not sure if I am involved in this portion of the argument.

 

[Adam]

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/FocusAreas/riegle_report/report/report_toc.htm
http://www.rense.com/general29/wesold.htm
http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/riegle1.html

 

[Outcast]

Christianity and Western Civilization have been at war with Islam for almost 1400 years. The United States has been at war with Islam since 1801, We are not at war with terrorists. We are at war with Islam and terror is just one of many weapons being used against us on many fronts. We are losing the war, because President Bush refuses to acknowledge who the enemy is.

 

[Adam]

Ad hominem time: Wow. You're insane.

 

[Outcast]

Has anyone heard of a terrorist attack in China, Japan, or any of the other South American countries (with the exception of Chili, Paraguay, and Columbia) lately? When I say terrorist attack, I mean a terrorist attack conducted by an Islamic fundamentalist or other Middle Eastern group.

Maybe this might have something to do with why China does not a a problem with terrorists. http://www.uygur.org/warning/warning.htm Got a strong stomach? Now someone tell me again how badly we treated Iraqi prisoners.

 

[Smurf]

Ad hominem time: Wow. You're insane.

I second that!

 

[studentx]

Outlaws view that this war is against Islam is the view of a radical muslim. Tho there is some truth to it, unless we adress the problem at its root (Islam), it will only get worse.
And just for Adam, I am not saying all muslims have a giant problem or are terrorists, I am saying the problem is best dealt with by religious debate.

 

[Outcast]

Ad hominem time: Wow. You're insane.

So you are attacking me, because you are unable to attack my argument.