Do pain and pleasure have distinct physiological pathways?

[Aquamarine]

The metabolic pathways of pain and malaise evolved because they served the fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment. They will be replaced by a different sort of neural architecture. States of sublime well-being are destined to become the genetically pre-programmed norm of mental health. It is predicted that the world's last unpleasant experience will be a precisely dateable event.

http://www.hedweb.com/

Is this possible? Is it possible to build a neural architecture based only on seeking certain outcomes (giving pleasure) without trying to avoid certain outcomes (giving pain)? What is the difference between pain and pleasure?

 

[KaneOris]

Personally, pain is a necessity. But, i think if we didnt know what pleasure was better than, why would it be pleasurable. But also in theory, if the feeling was pleasurable, then it wouldn't matter if we knew pain or not.

 

[Enos]

Of course we need pain. Pain is great.
Pain is an important part of who you are and how you become. It is the signs that tell us what areas need attention. Both mental and emotional pains are equally important to the pleasures.

 

[plum]

Pain is the body's way of teaching itself how to protect itself from harmful external phenomena. It relates to the concept of the "soul" also. Human bodies need "souls" inside them that feel the pain and help the body learn. Seen this way, the soul is ironically but a means to the end that is the body.

 

[wuliheron]

Ancient chinese saying: Running away is also running towards.

Pain and pleasure are two sides of the same coin, just as up and down describe a single phenomenon we call a dimension. Hence, it is impossible for a neural architecture to express pleasure alone. Certainly their are neural architectures that specialize in pleasure, but these do not exist in a vacuum. If they did, then we would no longer recognize their output as pleasure.

By definition, pleasure refers to stimulous that encourages certain types of behavior. Hence, the instinct of an ant to tend its young, in and of itself, does not constitute pleasure. Only if the ant is aware of what it is doing, no matter how limited this awareness, can it be said to enjoy the act.

The purpose of these feelings of pleasure and pain is obvious. We are the belief makers, we give meaning to everything or make everything meaningless. Hence, the awareness required for pleasure and pain is, again, indivisible from these sensations.

 

[Aquamarine]

Here is a list of objections and replies. Especially the reply to 4.0 is interesting.

http://www.hedweb.com/hedethic/hedon4.htm#incoherent

 

[Sweet & Intellectual]

Pain is the body's way of teaching itself how to protect itself from harmful external phenomena. It relates to the concept of the "soul" also. Human bodies need "souls" inside them that feel the pain and help the body learn. Seen this way, the soul is ironically but a means to the end that is the body.

you beat me to it.

 

[Chrono]

Also don't forget the famous quote by Friederic Neitzche: "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger."

 

[mee]

Also don't forget the famous quote by Friederic Neitzche: "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger."

This is an oft quoted statement that doesn't by any means always work. Just ask someone who has been struck by lightning and lived with years of disabling pain. It might be a nice platitude for a warrior, and it might be true some of the time. Maybe say what doesn't kill me makes me bitter. ;)

 

[mee]

Personally, pain is a necessity. But, i think if we didnt know what pleasure was better than, why would it be pleasurable. But also in theory, if the feeling was pleasurable, then it wouldn't matter if we knew pain or not.

I'm not sure there is only pleasure or pain, one or the other. Maybe there is a middle state of mild nothingness. Pain is useful in that it keeps us away from body destroying danger. Pleasure is useful because it is like a reward for people who are sad. But mild nothingness can be a state in between, like when one is in deep sleep, where nothing is particulary pleasureable or painful. I don't think one needs pain to feel pleasure maybe, but pain can help one to appreciate pleasure.

 

[Chrono]

Maybe say what doesn't kill me makes me bitter. ;)

That could also work.

 

[Locrian]

What doesen't kill me costs my insurance company.

 

[cragwolf]

In my rather fortunate and sheltered youth, I experienced very little emotional and physical pain, and what little I did experience was very short and very mild. Nevertheless, I loved life, cherished all of its pleasures fully, and couldn't wait to experience more of it when I climbed out of bed every morning. Life was wonderful. I did not need the experience of abject pain and suffering to appreciate extreme joy and pleasure. Now that I'm older, and life has dealt and is dealing me a sh1tload of pain and suffering, my perspective on pleasure and joy has not changed one bit, except that my memory of it is becoming hazier.

So, for me, the idea that you can't have pleasure without pain, is either a masochistic fantasy, or a sort of emotional crutch designed to help people withstand the misery of life. For those of you who disagree with me, here's some advice that I'm sure you'll take: if you feel that your life is pregnant with happiness and joy, go out and experience some real pain and suffering (e.g. spend a few years in jail, contract a painful disease, shun your friends and family and live in complete solitude, go to your nearest invaded country and get tortured, etc etc), otherwise you won't be able to truly appreciate your wonderful life.

 

[BoulderHead]

Do we need pain?

I hope so because otherwise far too much of my life was wasted... :tongue:

What is the difference between pain and pleasure?

Depending on where you go the price is roughly equivalent . I view it something like a taskmaster directing our actions.

 

[Gokul43201]

Do we need pain?

Pain is your friend; it is your ally. Pain reminds you to finish the job and get the hell home. Pain tells you when you have been seriously wounded. And, you know what the best thing about pain is? It tells you you're not dead yet!

~ Master Chief John Urgayle

 

[Enos]

Pain also tells you what not to do. Like putting your hands in the fire when your cold is a bad idea.

 

[Chrono]

Pain also tells you what not to do. Like putting your hands in the fire when your cold is a bad idea.

Pain is also an indicator of where you're allowed to touch women. :tongue:

 

[hypnagogue]

I don't think that pain must necessarily exist in order for there to be pleasure. There is probably a sense in which one's valuations of pleasure are affected by the pain they have experienced, and vice versa, but the experiences themselves appear to be intrinsically pleasing or painful. That is, if a given experience is pleasing, then it is so just in virtue of its immediate phenomenal character and not in virtue of the system of mental relationships it engages in (the relevant relationship here would be with memory).

Here's a thought experiment. Suppose we have two volunteers, A and B. A has had a light, care-free, painless life. B has had a difficult and painful life. Now inject both of them with heroin. Will there really be a substantial difference between the kinds of pleasure they feel? Contrariwise, take both A and B, and cut their legs off. Will A really feel the pain any more intensely than B?

On a less abstract note, my experience has been that undergoing pain does enhance pleasure, and vice versa, but only if the experiences are relatively intense, and even then the effect is not long lasting. For instance, after a few days of feeling very sick, when I recover it generally feels fantastic just to be back to 'normal' health. But the effect fades quickly, and once it has vanished, in general I do not seem to appreciate my normal health anymore than I would have had I never fallen ill at all.

 

[Hbaw]

I have seen lots of people try to gain pleasures by hurting themselves, they may be seen as crazy by some people but for others, they are fine.
I made an operation quite long ago, I had no pain at all, because I was sleping when they brought me into the room. But when I woke up and suddenly had a sneez, oh jeez, only god knows how hurt that cut was, that was a real physical pain I had ever had. you guys know I thought it was like the cut was reopened.

 

[Enos]

Thats where mental and physical feelings collide. People who hurt themselves have mental reasons to why they do it. To have a sense of control, to see the reactions of others, or a way of self punishment. The reason is out of mental pleasure or pain which exceeds the physical pain of hurting oneself. Sometimes to avoid physical pain which exceeds the physical pain of hurting oneself is the reason also.
Example: Some needs to remove a leg or hand in order to get out of a wrecked car that has a danger of exploding.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

How about the question: does pain need to be so intense?
For example when I did have boiling water splashed from a cup on me did it need to be so painful

 

[Chrono]

For example when I did have boiling water splashed from a cup on me did it need to be so painful

Depends on where it was splashed, doesn't it?

 

[brandon.irwin]

For the machine, wouldn't not having pleasure serve the same purpose as having pain? If it's goal was to seek pleasure, then it's goal will also be to avoid not having pleasure (its pain). We (well MOST of us) do the same. We seek pleasure, and avoid pain.

 

[dekoi]

Asking whether or not one needs pain is asking whether or not someone needs satisfaction/pleasure.

Would there really be pleasure if there were not pain?
--> Would there be good if there was no evil?

 

[Rasine]

What about torture like the women of eastern europe who are victums of forced prostatution trafficking, or those in Sierra Leaone whos familes are tortured beacuse they are apparently on some one else's "home land"? Is that pain necessary?

 

[dekoi]

Rasine: I would rather call that evil; not pain. If one was desperately looking to include "pain" in the statement, it would have to be 'pain as a product of evil'. The pain i talk of is not a product of evil.

 

[cragwolf]

Frankly, I couldn't give a stuff if the pain I'm feeling is a product of evil or good or something neutral. I just don't want to feel it.

 

[dekoi]

You don't want to feel it? But it is part of reality.

Would you like to escape reality?

--

How would you know what is pleasurable when you have never felt pain?

 

[hypnagogue]

How would you know what is pleasurable when you have never felt pain?

The same way a person could know what red looks like even if that person has never seen anything that is green. A pleasurable experience is pleasurable in virtue of its phenomenal character, not in virtue of its contrast to painful experience.

A rich person will not derive as much pleasure from his belongings as a poor person would, but this is because his psychological pleasure response has become attenuated, not because he doesn't have as large a 'pain reservoir' to compare it to. If you activate the rich person's brain in the same way as the poor person's brain would be activated by coming into such wealth, the rich person would then experience roughly the same level of pleasure.

 

[dekoi]

Red and green is a vague example. Consider for example, good and bad. That is a much larger similarity.

 

[hypnagogue]

Red and green is a vague example. Consider for example, good and bad. That is a much larger similarity.

Good and bad are abstract concepts. The definitions change with each generation; nothing is good or bad in virtue of what it is, but rather with respect to the person's set of values. At one time, to some people, burning women who were suspected of being witches was considered a good and just act. To us, such acts are regarded as deplorable.

Pleasure and pain aren't abstract concepts, but rather, they are quite viscerally and immediately felt conscious experiences. As such, they derive their particular values from the intrinsic character of the experiences themselves, rather than from a comparative relation. Burn anyone at the stake and they will experience intense pain, regardless of their values, beliefs, or past experiences.

 

[Entheos]

First let me say I support the Hedonistic Imperative 100%. So my opinion is biased.

But I do not believe we need pain. There are those who would argue that pain makes you who you are. And while that may be true, that does not imply that we need pain. It merely implies you would be a different person without pain. So the question becomes do you want to be this type of person.

Some would say it will limit your creativity and make it so you do not appreciate things, unless you have pain. But I disagree. I believe the Human Spirit will always thrive, no matter what environment it finds itself in; i.e. genentically unmodified vs. genetically "enhanced".

This will become a HUGE issue as we march forward through the future. In fact, I believe this issue will become more controversial than abortion, however, I am confident that we will slowly progress on the path of the Hedonistic Imperative. The reason is simple. People want to be perfect. They don't want genetic diseases or deformaties. They want to be able to control their emotions. They want to be able to do more.

/me looks forward to the future

 

[cragwolf]

You don't want to feel it? But it is part of reality.

Would you like to escape reality?

Yes. Or more precisely, I would like to change reality to meet my desires. Can't do it yet, but we're progressing. Medical science provides us with many ways to alleviate or reduce the intensity of pain. I think it's ridiculous to claim that this has reduced people's appreciation of pleasure.

How would you know what is pleasurable when you have never felt pain?

Because there's lack of pleasure, and many levels of pleasure. I can compare pleasure to lack of pleasure, and I can compare one level of pleasure to another level of pleasure. Seems pretty obvious.

 

[scienceguy]

pain and pleasure can be the same thing. Pain can be pleasureable. Like when you work out (You know how it feels). So to sum it up, pain is a part of life, so in order to deal with life, one must feel pain.
To make a machine that could only give you pleasure is wrong. It'll make it hard for one to deal with life. Pain makes you stronger and better, but only with moderate amounts. Don't mess with the mind man.

 

[honestrosewater]

Perhaps this thread was doomed from the beginning by being posted in philosophy instead of biology, but I thought the question was clearly asking about the physiology of pain and pleasure, not the philosophical concepts of pain and pleasure.
To answer the question, 1) Find the pain and pleasure "pathways" and 2) compare them. If they are not identical, then the answer to the question is yes. If they are identical, then you may still be able to create new pathways that would only involve pleasure.
BTW in seeking pleasurable situations, you are avoiding other situations; In seeking light you are avoiding darkness. There are also reflex pathways (like the knee jerk one) that I don't believe would involve anything like a pain or pleasure pathway (they don't even involve the brain until later).

Also, I don't know how exactly you would define pain and pleasure. For example, take Euglena gracilis. It's a single-celled protist, has a flagellum (tail for swimming) and chloroplasts (to make food via photosynthesis). It also has an eyespot for detecting light. When it "sees light", it swims towards the light so it can use the light to make food. Does a Euglena gracilis experience "seeing light" as pain or pleasure?
Is cell irritability pain or pleasure? Are pain and pleasure pathways the same for all humans? And so on. It is a great question, and you may want to post it in the Biology forum for better answers.