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How would this NOT work as a perpetual work/motion machine?

by CYP450
Tags: machine, perpetual, work, work or motion
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CYP450
#1
May12-12, 12:47 AM
P: 29
So perpetual work/motion machines are impossible, but I've toyed with this idea for a hypothetical, super massive, planetary-scale electrical energy generator for a while.

Suppose you had 2 very large moon/planet-sized spherical magnets that were far enough so as to not attract magnetically but close enough to attract gravitationally. You then set these magnetic spheres in motion so that they start orbiting a common center of mass.

You then enclose the shared orbit in a hollow, stationary torus. You then coil the torus with wires. My idea is that as the magnetic spheres orbit around their common center of mass, they move along the inside of the hollow torus coiled with cables and generate an electrical current in it forever.

And yet it couldn't work forever. I just want to know how or why this system couldn't go on indefinitely.
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jfizzix
#2
May12-12, 01:07 AM
P: 221
Quote Quote by CYP450 View Post
So perpetual work/motion machines are impossible, but I've toyed with this idea for a hypothetical, super massive, planetary-scale electrical energy generator for a while.

Suppose you had 2 very large moon/planet-sized spherical magnets that were far enough so as to not attract magnetically but close enough to attract gravitationally. You then set these magnetic spheres in motion so that they start orbiting a common center of mass.

You then enclose the shared orbit in a hollow, stationary torus. You then coil the torus with wires. My idea is that as the magnetic spheres orbit around their common center of mass, they move along the inside of the hollow torus coiled with cables and generate an electrical current in it forever.

And yet it couldn't work forever. I just want to know how or why this system couldn't go on indefinitely.

The energy would be lost due to electromagnetic radiation. Oscillating magnets in any configuration would produce EM waves which carry energy away from the system.

Also, the magnets would produce eddy currents in the wires (that is the principle way it extracts power), but these currents produce an opposing field to these magnets slowing them down, transferring momentum from the magnets to the torus.

That being said, it would take a heck of a long time to rob an earth sized magnet of its rotational kinetic energy in this way.
K^2
#3
May12-12, 02:56 AM
Sci Advisor
P: 2,470
If you want to know what the actual source of the force that will slow down rotation of your moons/planets is, it's the coil. When a magnet moves and induces current in a coil, the induced current generates its own magnetic field. That magnetic field will always be oriented in a way as to slow down the moving magnet. This is why it takes certain amount of torque to turn generator, and why it allows to convert mechanical work into electricity.

Gibby_Canes
#4
May12-12, 08:55 AM
P: 21
How would this NOT work as a perpetual work/motion machine?

How could you ever distance them so that they are affected by gravity and not the magnetic field?
Steely Dan
#5
May12-12, 09:21 AM
P: 317
Quote Quote by Gibby_Canes View Post
How could you ever distance them so that they are affected by gravity and not the magnetic field?
By "making" the intrinsic magnetic field of the planets very weak. Then the results of the magnetic force between the planets wouldn't be seen for long time scales. Of course, after a very long time it would perturb the orbits, and I'm not sure if the OP recognized that or not.
Gibby_Canes
#6
May12-12, 10:13 AM
P: 21
Quote Quote by Steely Dan View Post
By "making" the intrinsic magnetic field of the planets very weak. Then the results of the magnetic force between the planets wouldn't be seen for long time scales. Of course, after a very long time it would perturb the orbits, and I'm not sure if the OP recognized that or not.
ah. I am only just now starting to study E&M (excluding basic freshman E&M), so I wasn't sure if it would be possible considering how weak gravity is.
Buckleymanor
#7
May12-12, 05:31 PM
P: 490
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether

NASA has tried something using a similar principle with a tether and a planet.
Drakkith
#8
May13-12, 12:21 AM
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Quote Quote by Gibby_Canes View Post
How could you ever distance them so that they are affected by gravity and not the magnetic field?
If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the strength of a magnetic field fall off with the inverse cube of the distance instead of the inverse square like gravity does?
mfb
#9
May13-12, 10:30 AM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the strength of a magnetic field fall off with the inverse cube of the distance instead of the inverse square like gravity does?
For a dipole field, this is right, and therefore a larger distance does help to make gravity stronger than the electromagnetic force (from the dipoles). Higher orders would be possible and would fall off even quicker. However, you could just use two magnets with a rope in between and rotate that (or use rails and a single magnet), no need to get some fancy planet-sized magnets.

Anyway, the method of power extraction itself would slow down the movement.
DaleSpam
#10
May13-12, 11:51 AM
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Quote Quote by mfb View Post
Anyway, the method of power extraction itself would slow down the movement.
Exactly. Each joule of electrical or thermal energy extracted would reduce the orbital KE of the planet by 1 joule.
Dickfore
#11
May13-12, 12:01 PM
P: 3,014
Quote Quote by CYP450 View Post
So perpetual work/motion machines are impossible, but I've toyed with this idea for a hypothetical, super massive, planetary-scale electrical energy generator for a while.

Suppose you had 2 very large moon/planet-sized spherical magnets that were far enough so as to not attract magnetically but close enough to attract gravitationally. You then set these magnetic spheres in motion so that they start orbiting a common center of mass.

You then enclose the shared orbit in a hollow, stationary torus. You then coil the torus with wires. My idea is that as the magnetic spheres orbit around their common center of mass, they move along the inside of the hollow torus coiled with cables and generate an electrical current in it forever.

And yet it couldn't work forever. I just want to know how or why this system couldn't go on indefinitely.
If I understood you correctly, you use the spheres' magnetic field to sweep the turns at different parts of the torus, and generate varying electromotive force.

But, if you remember Lenz's Law, the current that flows through the coils (you must draw current to get positive work from the system, an open circuit does not generate power) opposes the cause of its generation, in this case, the relative motion of the spheres with respect to the torus. Thus, the induced current generates a magnetic field that tries to slow down the spheres.

As they slow down, the gravitational foce forces them to go on an orbit with a smaller radius (remember that the centripetal acceleration is caused by the gravitational attraction of the spheres, so in equilibrium [itex]v^2/r = G M/(2 r)^2 \Rightarrow r = G M/(4 v^2)[/itex], the radius of the orbit is inversely proportional to the square of the orbital speed). Thus, the spheres start spiraling towards eachother. They either hit the walls of the torus, or hit the planet around which they are orbiting.
haunted1748
#12
Jun20-12, 10:13 AM
P: 2
Its not a bad idea, but its not perpetual energy. Basically you're talking about making a massive alternator that uses gravity to give you your mechanical motion and converting it into usable energy.

It looks like it will last forever, but it won't. The laws of thermodynamics still apply and eventually gravity will implode the system, and for that reason it can not be called perpetual energy. However, due to the massive scale you are talking about, once set up, it could last millions of years, just not forever.
HallsofIvy
#13
Jun20-12, 10:19 AM
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The best perptual motion machine I have ever seen is this: Start with a vertical wheel on an axle. At the point on the wheel directly to the right of the center attach a 9 kg mass clearly labeled "9". Rotate the wheel, say, 60 degrees clockwise and add another such mass. Continue this around the wheel.

As the wheel turns the masses will turn over as they go past the bottom point and be labeled "6" instead of "9"!! Since the masses on the right side are always larger than the masses on the left, the wheel will continue to turn!
A.T.
#14
Jun20-12, 10:36 AM
P: 4,078
Quote Quote by HallsofIvy View Post
The best perptual motion machine I have ever seen is this: Start with a vertical wheel on an axle. At the point on the wheel directly to the right of the center attach a 9 kg mass clearly labeled "9". Rotate the wheel, say, 60 degrees clockwise and add another such mass. Continue this around the wheel.

As the wheel turns the masses will turn over as they go past the bottom point and be labeled "6" instead of "9"!! Since the masses on the right side are always larger than the masses on the left, the wheel will continue to turn!


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