Should space exploration be only the developed world’s adventure?

[Drakkith]

It wouldn't be such a huge problem if the money went where it was supposed to.

While I agree that corruption is terrible, it merely compounds the money issue. If you don't have enough money BEFORE corruption, you sure as hell aren't going to have it afterwards.

 

[mishrashubham]

While I agree that corruption is terrible, it merely compounds the money issue. If you don't have enough money BEFORE corruption, you sure as hell aren't going to have it afterwards.

That's right, though it wouldn't be the #1 issue.

 

[shashankac655]

I didn't say that it is - the issue here is that you are suggesting it should. This is your thread! You started it by asking that question!

My intention was to remove the hype about money being diverted from developmental activities to space programs and i asked the question because i have a habit of accepting that there is a possibility of me being wrong ( i never claim that what i think has no probability of being wrong) but as long as think i am right i will defend myself with reasonable arguments.

 

[shashankac655]

The problem with manned space exploration is that it is horrifically expensive, dangerous and there are little economic returns. For a developed country with the funds and the will to fund it space programs are good at rousing public interest, for developing countries it may be seen as a waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere.

You've spoke of space technology being "something different" and given examples of other fields such as bio/nanotechnology but that difference is entirely aesthetic.

Well yes, there appears to be no quick profits when countries invest in space technologies and I think all the countries who invest in it are aware of that fact. It is not quick profits that the countries are trying to make by investing space there are lots other ways to make money ,the reason behind investing in space are in some ways philosophical, political and a result of thinking into the future and not really unrealistic, this is what sets space technology apart from other technologies that are coming up in the 21st century, I am aware that nano/bio technologies are going to give profits too, nanotechnology is going to bring huge improvements in computing power and may have applications in medicine, surgery etc and biotechnology is going to improve modern agriculture and in many more things i.e nano/bio or any other technologies which are not related to space technology are going to primarily improve our lives or the way we live (we can do a lot more in a lot less time and space build more powerful but smaller machines).

Space technology is not just about improving our lives and doing more things a lot faster and living longer it is about expanding the influence human civilization beyond Earth and space is a new horizon to explore just like Europeans explored the world and then colonized other continents and exploited the natural resources and made profits and became the centre of human intellect, space is like the next stage of the same process of exploration but this time we don’t want it to be only a European or the western adventure we want to be a part of it too. It is obvious and natural for any new technology that is going to have such an impact on humanity to be extremely dangerous, initially expensive and unpredictable when you are looking for profits, I don’t know why the East did not think about exploration like the Europeans did some time ago and I don’t want a similar kind of mistake to be made again and I don’t want another field in which “the Eastern world lags far behind”, despite all this I don’t completely disagree with you about the costs involved, take a look at my first post about how modest India’s space program is compared to the West ,I never pushed for an expensive manned space programs from India,I only want to make sure the developing world doesn’t turn a blind eye towards this new horizon.

Why shouldn’t we arouse public interest in space in the developing world? It make more people want to be a part of it ,it will attract people with talent, it will create jobs not just as scientists but also in the manufacture of aerospace products ,space technology itself can be commercialized (it already has) ISRO has launched many satellites of many countries and will continue to do that ,the “space industry” is not running at loss ,profits are being made and it will grow, when you commercialize anything it will not run out of money so easily even in the developing world ,there are always risks involved in trying out anything new and big. The “space industry” can be privatized and private companies can be given a chance to come with their ideas and government need not spend all on its own this lead to even more employment in the industry and will reduce costs. All this won’t happen over night or in a few years but the developing countries are capable of doing it in the near future, economies are growing fast in the developing world and as years roll on space technology is going to get cheaper and not more expensive like any other technology.

 

[Drakkith]

EVERYTHING is space technology. Every field of science has a part in space exploration in some way. Faster, lighter, cheaper computers benefit space exploration. Alloys and materials developed for Fusion and Fission reactors will be needed for when we send ships with those power sources out into space. Advances in optics and related fields will lead to better and easier ways to navigate and communicate over vast distances, not to mention their current use in space telescopes.

Even mundane things such as new sanitation techniques will apply. From Biology and Medicine we understand more about the human body and how it works, enabling us to increase quality of life in space and to make sure that diseases don't kill isolated crews. Quite literally, nearly every advancement in science ever made leads to faster, safer, and more efficient space exploration. Don't be sad that your country isn't directly researching boosters and rockets and similar items, for if you are researching anything new at all, it will better space exploration in some way, even if that way is to simply mark another dead end path on the long map of science.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

nanotechnology...may have applications in medicine

That really made me laugh

 

[russ_watters]

Well yes, there appears to be no quick profits...

Very little in that post has anything to do with your OP. Your OP was claiming practical benefit, not philosophical and political benefit. Frankly, I think national pride is the primary reason most countries have space programs. If that's the reason, fine, but don't try to spin it as actually having tangeable benefit.

 

[shashankac655]

That really made me laugh

laugh if you want i don't mind, i am no expert in nanotechnology or any thing else at this stage, i was just speculating and this field is at it's infancy there is no way to tell where it may or may not have applications.

Many technologies have benefited in fields it was not really meant have anything to do with but i think you can dismiss my speculation if you want to :)

 

[shashankac655]

Very little in that post has anything to do with your OP. Your OP was claiming practical benefit, not philosophical and political benefit. Frankly, I think national pride is the primary reason most countries have space programs. If that's the reason, fine, but don't try to spin it as actually having tangeable benefit.

In my OP i did not claim that this will bring any immediate,practical benefits i said things about long term benefits about becoming less dependence on the west and space is just on of the fields in which i seek less dependence.
You have clearly not read the last paragraph (which has something to do with tangible benefits) of my recent post.

 

[shashankac655]

EVERYTHING is space technology. Every field of science has a part in space exploration in some way. Faster, lighter, cheaper computers benefit space exploration. Alloys and materials developed for Fusion and Fission reactors will be needed for when we send ships with those power sources out into space. Advances in optics and related fields will lead to better and easier ways to navigate and communicate over vast distances, not to mention their current use in space telescopes.

Even mundane things such as new sanitation techniques will apply. From Biology and Medicine we understand more about the human body and how it works, enabling us to increase quality of life in space and to make sure that diseases don't kill isolated crews. Quite literally, nearly every advancement in science ever made leads to faster, safer, and more efficient space exploration. Don't be sad that your country isn't directly researching boosters and rockets and similar items, for if you are researching anything new at all, it will better space exploration in some way, even if that way is to simply mark another dead end path on the long map of science.

I agree, i did not underestimate or degrade nano/bio or other technologies, space technology makes use of advancements in other technologies, space technology is to a certain extent nothing but application of other technologies in exploring outer space.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

laugh if you want i don't mind, i am no expert in nanotechnology or any thing else at this stage, i was just speculating and this field is at it's infancy there is no way to tell where it may or may not have applications.

Many technologies have benefited in fields it was not really meant have anything to do with but i think you can dismiss my speculation if you want to :)

I wasn't poking fun at you but nanomedicine is what I do. To hear that it may have applications amused me. Though you are right, the field is in it's infancy but already there are products out there in the market and in hospitals that are novel nanomedicines, there's dozens more in the pipeline and an ever increasing level of discoveries and potential ideas.

Just to prevent this derailing the thread there are some nanomedicines that are funded by NASA to try and abate bone loss in space. It's been a while since I've heard about it but I met someone at a conference whose lab was researching site-specific delivery of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium_ranelate" . So the technologies necessary for space also have benefit here, the problem is that they are far cheaper and can be put to "better" use on Earth. The sheer cost of getting anything to orbit combined with the lack of economic incentive means that just because a technology would help in space doesn't mean it will be used that way.

 

[shashankac655]

I wasn't poking fun at you but nanomedicine is what I do. To hear that it may have applications amused me. Though you are right, the field is in it's infancy but already there are products out there in the market and in hospitals that are novel nanomedicines, there's dozens more in the pipeline and an ever increasing level of discoveries and potential ideas.

Just to prevent this derailing the thread there are some nanomedicines that are funded by NASA to try and abate bone loss in space. It's been a while since I've heard about it but I met someone at a conference whose lab was researching site-specific delivery of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium_ranelate" . So the technologies necessary for space also have benefit here, the problem is that they are far cheaper and can be put to "better" use on Earth. The sheer cost of getting anything to orbit combined with the lack of economic incentive means that just because a technology would help in space doesn't mean it will be used that way.

Thank you for updating me about recent(if it is recent) developments in nanotechnology, i agree it can be put to better and cheaper use on Earth and let me assure you i am not expecting India to fulfill all my wild dreams about space exploration that i have expressed in my previous post, in fact i don't want it to attempt it any where in the near future, there is one other bigger and perhaps more capable country in the developing world which has dreams about colonizing space and may have a chance to realize my dreams, it is obviously China and it may not be a friendly neighbor or a country but when i talk about the developing world in general there are some remarkable aspects about this country that i think other developing countries should try to learn , i like the way it is able stand up to the western world ,it's rapidly growing economy and it's rapid military modernization and to certain effect it's ambitious space program can send shivers down western spines but all i want India to do is try to maintain a minimum possible "space budget" at least for now ,so that we are not left behind completely, i don't want or expect India to "lead the world" in this "expensive adventure" but India has to be a part of it ,however small it's part may be.

 

[shashankac655]

I didn't say that it is - the issue here is that you are suggesting it should. This is your thread! You started it by asking that question!

Show me one post of mine in which i said it should be doing that.

 

[Drakkith]

Show me one post of mine in which i said it should be doing that.

Pretty much all of your posts are written in a way that implies that you believe they should.

 

[BobG]

Even if we could just buy, i don't really see a clear "transfer of technology policy" that is happening because if technology is transferred we no longer have to buy! from the west.

No such policy exists because none is required. Once in the public domain, technology is free and posted on the internet for all to see...actually, it's posted before it's free for people to imitate or steal, which happens a lot in the East.

I'm not sure what you mean. There are definitely restrictions on transferring satellite and rocket technology to foreign countries. (U.S. Space Entrepreneur Accused of Aiding Iran Satellite Launch). Unless violating those restrictions are what you mean by people stealing the technology.

But the ability to launch objects into orbit definitely means more than just national pride. The ability to launch an object just halfway around the world couple with the ability to develop nuclear weapons gives a country some real geopolitical clout.

A lot of people say that what we need is a cheap way to launch objects into space. Actually, keeping launches expensive is good for US national security. Expensive launches means fewer countries capable of launching objects into space.

None the less, you can't deny technology or keep technology expensive forever.

 

[Drakkith]

Ah ok, now I understand the technology issue a little better. While the physics are all right out on the internet, there are not step by step instructions to building a rocket. You have to manufacture a lot almost from scratch. This requires knowledgeable people that know how to design, manufacture and build all of this correctly.

 

[shashankac655]

Pretty much all of your posts are written in a way that implies that you believe they should.

From my OP to my last post, i always talked about having something to do in space rather than having nothing ,if you still feel that way then it means you have misunderstood what i am trying to say.

 

[shashankac655]

Very little in that post has anything to do with your OP. Your OP was claiming practical benefit, not philosophical and political benefit. Frankly, I think national pride is the primary reason most countries have space programs. If that's the reason, fine, but don't try to spin it as actually having tangeable benefit.

That post of mine had little to do with my OP because it had more to do with my response to ryan about what makes me think space technology is "something different" ,well you may criticize the post in some other way like calling it primitive or far fetched but i clearly stated in my next post that i do not intend to ask all that to be done by India any time soon.

 

[Drakkith]

From my OP to my last post, i always talked about having something to do in space rather than having nothing ,if you still feel that way then it means you have misunderstood what i am trying to say.

Perhaps I have. But it does seem implied to me. It is easy to misunderstand people on a forum!

 

[shashankac655]

I'm not sure what you mean. There are definitely restrictions on transferring satellite and rocket technology to foreign countries. (U.S. Space Entrepreneur Accused of Aiding Iran Satellite Launch). Unless violating those restrictions are what you mean by people stealing the technology.

But the ability to launch objects into orbit definitely means more than just national pride. The ability to launch an object just halfway around the world couple with the ability to develop nuclear weapons gives a country some real geopolitical clout.

A lot of people say that what we need is a cheap way to launch objects into space. Actually, keeping launches expensive is good for US national security. Expensive launches means fewer countries capable of launching objects into space.

None the less, you can't deny technology or keep technology expensive forever.

Ahh so somebody came to my rescue at last! this is what i was trying to say but i lacked suitable words.

India's nuclear weapons program has only two things to do
1)To develop a minimum credible nuclear deterrent against China.
2)To make sure Pakistan doesn't surge ahead with nuclear weapons and missile technology which it borrowed from alleged links with China and North Korea.
And russ was not really wrong, A.Q Khan did steal nuclear technology from the west to start pakistan's Nuclear weapons program and there are several other examples.

India has no intention or any thing to gain by trying to attack Europe or the USA with long range nuclear capable missiles which is a ridiculous thing to even think about and the US knows that but i do consider the concerns of security in the west.

you see when any country has almost unlimited funds and the intention to not let things get cheaper then they seldom think about reducing costs to a significant extent but when a country has very limited funds then it will lead to some attempts to come up with radically cheaper ways to do the job.

 

[shashankac655]

Very little in that post has anything to do with your OP. Your OP was claiming practical benefit, not philosophical and political benefit. Frankly, I think national pride is the primary reason most countries have space programs. If that's the reason, fine, but don't try to spin it as actually having tangeable benefit.

i accept that in a few of my posts i did get a little childish but national pride is not only benefit
,it is also about building confidence in the scientific community of developing countries, space technology is challenging,dangerous and complicated and getting involved in such technologies will boost confidence in a nation's scientific community and it can them feel that they are also equally capable as their western counter parts and they can also handle big,complicated and challenging tasks and the developing world can dream of a day when they are no longer dominated by their western counter parts ,this is a important step in building confidence in a nation.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

i accept that in a few of my posts i did get a little childish but national pride is not only benefit
,it is also about building confidence in the scientific community of developing countries, space technology is challenging,dangerous and complicated and getting involved in such technologies will boost confidence in a nation's scientific community and it can them feel that they are also equally capable as their western counter parts and they can also handle big,complicated and challenging tasks and the developing world can dream of a day when they are no longer dominated by their western counter parts ,this is a important step in building confidence in a nation.

I quite disagree. Manned space travel is risky, along the way to developing better technology we are going to loose people. I don't think the Challenger disaster boosted confidence. In addition the huge expense of a space program never generates appreciation during times of economic stress (which nearly all major space program countries are undergoing).

I'm not saying that manned space travel won't be good for public perception, indeed if the space race atmosphere was recreated it would be great but I don't think this is a feasible thing to rely on. Instead focusing on technologies that would be useful on both ground and space would be best as the public would support it for the former and when it's developed enough to make the transition would be best.

 

[Drakkith]

i accept that in a few of my posts i did get a little childish but national pride is not only benefit
,it is also about building confidence in the scientific community of developing countries, space technology is challenging,dangerous and complicated and getting involved in such technologies will boost confidence in a nation's scientific community and it can them feel that they are also equally capable as their western counter parts and they can also handle big,complicated and challenging tasks and the developing world can dream of a day when they are no longer dominated by their western counter parts ,this is a important step in building confidence in a nation.

I understand your goals, but I cannot agree that space exploration is the way to accomplish this. My belief is that it is simply a waste of money and manpower. I can think of a dozen different things that are less costly and would have infinitely more tangible benefits. Also, you seem to expect that if you try you WILL be able to accomplish it. However it is not that simple. As has been shown by the multiple accidents that have occurred in space flight to this day, it takes a mindset of extreme safety and reliability to be successful. Not just in the major positions such as astronauts, but from the director of the program all the way down to the companies that sell parts to agencies such as NASA. A single item that isn't checked properly can fail and cause disaster. This mindset is not easily instilled in such a large amount of people.

Your entire mindset seems to be that the western world dominates the non-western world and that spaceflight is a way to "throw off the shackles". I'm sorry but this is not true. You are mistaking spaceflight as a way to improve the conditions of your country. Spaceflight is not a means to an end, it is a result of having the means in the first place.

 

[shashankac655]

Actually the first mistake I did is that I started this thread on the day before my semester exams .
I could think clearly when I wrote my OP but after that I have just blurted out so many things that I really didn’t intend to say and I ended up irritating one of the PF mentors ,only mege seems to have understood what I was trying to say in my OP.

First you have understand that India is not dreaming about Starswars or startrek or things like building human settlements on the moon and Mars and etc. What I meant by investing is space is just about trying to build some self-confidence in our scientific community ,when a little willpower and confidence is achieved research is going to speed up in all other technologies as well. The large human potential available in our fast growing middle class should not be wasted.

What I was trying to say is that nothing is original in modern India ,nothing unique it has become too westernized unlike it’s ancient past ,ancient Indians are known for their accomplishments in mathematics,astronomy ,philosophy and so may other things but if you look at India today ,Indians have stopped thinking all together for a long time but now we have large middle class population(larger than the entire population of the United states) ,we cannot become a replica of the West by just borrowing all the knowledge( I am not saying we shouldn’t) ,we should also try to be ourselves do something on our own without depending on the west too much and become aware of our own capabilities, this is better than becoming a third rate version of you.

I too didn’t think that just investing in space is going to transform the whole nation altogether when I was writing my OP, it’s just that India has not come up with anything on it’s own for a very long time ,Indians have forgotten their own capabilities ,their own history and trying to develop indigenous technologies is only going to be a problem if we decide to spend too much on it ,the fact is we are not spending too much on it,the money spent on research(not just space)is insignificant when compared to developmental programs .(india spent around $80 million dollars on it’s recent unmanned lunar mission compared to that it's $7.7 billion on public welfare in the year 2000 and is growing ever since)
http://www.newsbullet.in/world/52-more/13164-indias-poverty-to-halve-by-2015-un-report
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ind...pment-expenditure-percent-of-gdp-wb-data.html
UN-Report 2011.
Expenditure.
http://www.newsbullet.in/world/52-more/13164-indias-poverty-to-halve-by-2015-un-report.

You have to understand that no country the size of India(with such a divided population) has become developed in just a few years after independence, even China has lot of work to do to to call itself “developed”.Poverty and general lack of development is a problem but it can’t solved overnight.
China is working out on it’s own without too much dependence on the west and India should do the same but I am not saying that India should develop anti-western sentiments like China.

 

[Drakkith]

Starting small and working up seems to be a good way to start. A few million here and there for small projects should work fine. When you say you want to do space exploration I think many of us are imagining something the size and scale of the apollo program or space shuttle program.

 

[shashankac655]

Starting small and working up seems to be a good way to start. A few million here and there for small projects should work fine. When you say you want to do space exploration I think many of us are imagining something the size and scale of the apollo program or space shuttle program.

The primary intentions behind the setting up of ISRO(Indian space research organization) was to reduce the dependence on other countries for launching satellites that forecast weather and locate mineral resources and keep track on forest cover and for television etc..but recently ISRO thought of going a bit further but even then it has spent far less money for the lunar mission than what NASA or ESA or other big organizations would have spent for the same mission.

ISRO neither has the capability nor the intention to match NASA or the ESA and other big organizations anytime soon, ISRO’s ambitions and capabilities are modest compared to NASA and everything is done at lowest cost possible even then ISRO is not really so unsuccessful.

Comments and opinions will be appreciated.

If you and other people had read the OP properly before posting in this thread then you wouldn't have imagined something like that.

 

[Drakkith]

If you and other people had read the OP properly before posting in this thread then you wouldn't have imagined something like that.

Perhaps, but I stand by my earlier statements about the money being better spent elsewhere.

 

[shashankac655]

Perhaps, but I stand by my earlier statements about the money being better spent elsewhere.

space

And i have clearly justified in my previous post.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I agree with Drakkith that money could definitely be better spent in India, especially when you consider that countries like mine donate http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/feb/14/government-defends-1bn-aid-india" . Now I'm not opposed to aid in the slightest but it is a bit insulting when the country you give money to spends money on non-essential things rather than sorting out their own social problems first.

 

[shashankac655]

I agree with Drakkith that money could definitely be better spent in India, especially when you consider that countries like mine donate http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/feb/14/government-defends-1bn-aid-india" . Now I'm not opposed to aid in the slightest but it is a bit insulting when the country you give money to spends money on non-essential things rather than sorting out their own social problems first.

The money that others Countries are donating are not being spent on our space program.

Let me give the whole history of poverty in India (read the whole article and don't miss the last part.)

poverty in india

 

[Ryan_m_b]

The money that others Countries are donating are not being spent on our space program.

Let me give the whole history of poverty in India (read the whole article and don't miss the last part.)

poverty in india

I don't see your point? Perhaps you could state it clearly. I'm not saying that the aid program pays for the Indian space program however if India reduced it's space budget to 80% of what it is now it wouldn't need Britain's aid. Again I'm not against Aid, I'm just saying that a space agency shouldn't be a priority for a country that has so much poverty (unless there is some very good argument for how said space agency can relieve poverty somehow which I highly doubt).

 

[shashankac655]

I don't see your point? Perhaps you could state it clearly. I'm not saying that the aid program pays for the Indian space program however if India reduced it's space budget to 80% of what it is now it wouldn't need Britain's aid. Again I'm not against Aid, I'm just saying that a space agency shouldn't be a priority for a country that has so much poverty (unless there is some very good argument for how said space agency can relieve poverty somehow which I highly doubt.

i never said it should be(this question has been asked several times in this thread)

Removing poverty is not the aim behind the space program as i have said before that it has more to do with building confidence in our scientific community and it's about attracting young middle class(390 million) minds towards research in science and technology.The Indian middle class are not really interested in research right now ,it all about jetting jobs and settling in life at least they(people who can afford to think beyond just food and money) will get fascinated and may aim higher.

 

[thorium1010]

I'm just saying that a space agency shouldn't be a priority for a country that has so much poverty (unless there is some very good argument for how said space agency can relieve poverty somehow which I highly doubt).

I don't know about space exploration, but space agencies with capability to launch sateellites helps to alleviate poverty, monitors weather patterns also communication.

As far as space exploration is concerned its more of curiosity than practical use IMO.
One thing space agencies can help is in building new technologies which may benefit people.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

i never said it should be(this question has been asked several times in this thread)

So you agree with my point? I posted only because I was agreeing with Drakkiths point

 

[shashankac655]

So you agree with my point? I posted only because I was agreeing with Drakkiths point

Drakkith had an idea(or still has ,like many other people) that India is spending a huge portion of it's GDP on space program and is starving it's own people to death which is clearly not the case .

Space technology can have tangible benefits like satellite launches (commercialization)Antrix and not just national pride.