Is toxic black mold lurking in your home renovation project?

[Ivan Seeking]

So, here is a good example of why you should never take a short cut like I just did.

We had run out of filter masks, so I proceeded to finish tearing out the drywall in the bathroom without one. I was almost done, and I figured that I could just be careful and things would be okay. WRONG!

It turns out that we have toxic black mold in some areas, and I took a big blast of contaminated dust, right in the face. Within a couple of hours I felt terrible. Moderate nausea was the worst of it, but it also seems to have messed with my sinuses, much like a bad allergy. I thought I was getting the flu and didn't realize what was seen until I did some homework last night. I thought they were just stains of some kind. :yuck:

So, now my job is twice as big as when I started. The joys of remodeling!

Oh yes, some varieties molds like this are neurological toxins that can ruin you life; permanently.

 

[Moonbear]

Wow, probably a good thing you decided to remodel! Much better to find it while it's isolated than before it spreads throughout the entire house. If it's really the toxic stuff, you should get an expert into test that it isn't elsewhere and to determine if you've really removed it all. You also don't want to be spreading the spores around all over the place! You should confirm whether it really is the toxic stuff. It could just be mildew. Plenty of people have mildew/mold allergies, and an intense whiff of it will really do you in if you're one of those lucky ones.

My cousin has severe mold allergies (and allergies to half of the other stuff on this planet too, lucky him) and had to move out of his house while they had a contractor doing renovations and cleaning out mold. It wasn't the toxic mold, but just normal mildew-type stuff that grows in damp basements where there was a water leak, but his allergies are so bad, it didn't matter, he still needed to get out until the work was done.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Based on what I read, I'm pretty sure that this is TBM. Hopefully the worst of it is in the insulation which all comes out today. In either case, it can be treated. But it really knocked me for a loop. I felt terrible for about 12 hours.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh crud I almost forgot, I need to do the black light test and I'll know for sure. Apparently TBM glows yellow under UV.

 

[Moonbear]

Based on what I read, I'm pretty sure that this is TBM. Hopefully the worst of it is in the insulation which all comes out today. In either case, it can be treated. But it really knocked me for a loop. I felt terrible for about 12 hours.

Well, if the stuff kills you, remember to tell Tsu to donate your brain to DocToxyn. :tongue2:

Wear a respirator around that stuff and make sure you seal off vents and such and dispose of any contaminated material in double plastic bags before carrying it out of that area so you're sure you don't spread those spores throughout the rest of the house. I think once you kill it off and remove anything obviously contaminated, you can apply a sealant of some sort so anything remaining is trapped and can't continue to grow and spread. Usually the toxic stuff is best left to professionals.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, if the stuff kills you, remember to tell Tsu to donate your brain to DocToxyn. :tongue2: .

Okay, Doc can have what's left of my brain, and you can have my third foot. :tongue2:

Wear a respirator around that stuff and make sure you seal off vents and such and dispose of any contaminated material in double plastic bags before carrying it out of that area so you're sure you don't spread those spores throughout the rest of the house. I think once you kill it off and remove anything obviously contaminated, you can apply a sealant of some sort so anything remaining is trapped and can't continue to grow and spread. Usually the toxic stuff is best left to professionals.

Thanks. And yes, I know that I should leave this to the professionals, but when you have a place like ours, where we live, you have to be the professional. But, hopefully I will use better judgement from here on. And any more advice that you may have is greatly appreciated. Much of what you said was almost word for word what the help sites said. Also, do you happen know the approximate size of the spores? I assume that they would be larger than 10 microns?

Since this is the first room to be remodeled, even if we have a big problem, it isn't really so bad as long as I know what to do.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is funny. One of the help sites goes into the long history of known health effects of TBM.

From Leviticus Chapter 14, verses 33-57

On the 7th day the priest shall return to inspect the house. If the mildew has spread on the walls, he is to order that the contaminated stones be torn out and thrown into an unclean place outside the town. He must have all the inside walls of the house scraped and the material that is scrapped off dumped into an unclean place outside the town. Then they are to take other stones to replace these and take new clay and plaster the house

If the mildew reappears in the house after the stones have been torn out and the house is scraped and plastered the priest is to go and examine it and, if the mildew has spread in the house, it is a destructive mildew: the house is unclean. It must be torn down – its stones, timbers and all the plaster – and taken out of the town to an unclean place.

Anyone who goes into the house while it is closed up will be unclean till evening.

Anyone who sleeps or eats in the house must wash his clothes….

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And check this out!

Remember, that according to a 1999 Mayo Clinic study, nearly all chronic sinus infections (afflicting about 37 million Americans) are a result of mold.

http://www.toxic-black-mold-info.com/moldsigns.htm

 

[Moonbear]

:rofl: I'm going to have to check out that verse in Leviticus and see if it really says that! It just reinforces my view that the Bible isn't supposed to be about religion but was an early public health code (though it's easier to get people to comply for fear of eternal damnation than just telling them it's for their own good). They wrote the laws the best they could with what they knew at the time.

As for spore size, it seems to be about 5 microns for Stachybotrys chartarum.

Applied and Environmental Microbiology, January 2005, p. 114-122, Vol. 71, No. 1
Detection of Airborne Stachybotrys chartarum Macrocyclic Trichothecene Mycotoxins on Particulates Smaller than Conidia
T. L. Brasel, D. R. Douglas, S. C. Wilson, and D. C. Straus
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/1/114
(I'm not sure if you can access the link, but they showed electron microscopic images of the spores captured in a filter with 5.0 micron pore size, and the particles they trapped are inside the pores, and look like they nearly fill the pore completely, so are likely just under 5 microns.) So it looks like you'll need safety equipment that excludes 5 micron particles, especially while you're actively disturbing things it's living on.

It looks like most respirators will filter out particles down to 0.3 microns, so you should be okay with a real respirator (not just dust masks). Most sold in hardware stores are N95, which means it's 95% efficient (N means Not resistant to oils, but this sounds like a dry task to me). You might want to find out if you need something more efficient for these molds and for the duration you'll be working with them. N99 or N100 (100 is equivalent to a HEPA filter). http://www.cdc.gov/elcosh/docs/d0100/d000102/d000102.html

If you can get your hands on disposable protective clothing and hair covers, do that too (Tsu might be able to swipe some from work? *whistles* :uhh:), because you don't want these things trapped on your clothing or hair. My own gut feeling is I'd wear clothing that can be bleached underneath the disposable gear. I don't know of much that can resist a good soaking in bleach, though I don't know enough about these spores to know what they can or can't resist. Besides, about the only thing easily bleachable is white cotton clothing, and with all the protective gear, you'll want to be wearing cotton that will wick some of the sweat away.

Oh, and of course, before you head into the work area, we want a picture of you in that outfit! :rofl:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh, and of course, before you head into the work area, we want a picture of you in that outfit!

 

[Moonbear]

:rofl: Yep, that should do it. Though, the cape might get in the way a bit when you're trying to work. :rofl:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

:rofl: Yep, that should do it. Though, the cape might get in the way a bit when you're trying to work. :rofl:

I never work without a cape.

Thanks for the help. I ran down and bought an industrial grade respirator, and the best filters - rated specifically for protection against toxic molds.

 

[Moonbear]

I never work without a cape.

Thanks for the help. I ran down and bought an industrial grade respirator, and the best filters - rated specifically for protection against toxic molds.

Sounds good. I sure don't envy you that job! You're really quickly going to wish you started this one in the middle of winter. Well, at least when you head outside to hose yourself down, or shower at the end of the day, it'll feel REALLY good!

 

[Evo]

I never work without a cape.

Thanks for the help. I ran down and bought an industrial grade respirator, and the best filters - rated specifically for protection against toxic molds.

Ah, you wimp! Toxic Black Mold is the only thing holding my house together. :rofl:

 

[JamesU]

Ah, you wimp! Toxic Black Mold is the only thing holding my house together. :rofl:

I thought you had the orange stuff

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, the worst of it - all of the insulation - is gone. It doesn't appear to have spread past the bathroom.

One thing that surely didn't help the situation is that the joker who installed the insulation had it turned the wrong way on one an a half walls. It also looks like the old window was leaking a tad, and condensation from the pipes caused the rest.

Oh, as for the disposable clothing, I always have plenty at the ready around here. I just needed a good respirator. I also bought a bunch of 3 mil, 55 gallon garbage bags. That made the job pretty easy. :yuck:

I couldn't find anything made for this, so it looks the bleach comes next.

 

[Hurkyl]

Ack, that was a load bearing mold!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ack, that was a load bearing mold!

Is that why I hear all of those creaking and popping sounds in the bathroom now?

 

[Moonbear]

Well, the worst of it - all of the insulation - is gone. It doesn't appear to have spread past the bathroom.

That's good.

One thing that surely didn't help the situation is that the joker who installed the insulation had it turned the wrong way on one an a half walls.

Maybe it was the right way when they installed it from the other side. :tongue:

I couldn't find anything made for this, so it looks the bleach comes next.

I don't know if it would be any better, but deck cleaner that's intended to kill algae and outdoor molds, last time I checked, was a combination of bleach and sodium hydroxide. Though straight bleach should do a good job (not sure whether that will weaken the wood though). Spores are tough buggers though, so I hope that's good enough. I think I'd lean toward spraying a layer of paint or some other sealer on the walls where you found the mold...I don't know if that's needed or normally done, but I'd just get the cheapest paint I could find and use it to seal in anything I couldn't get out...maybe you could use waterproof deck stain even so you could just spray it on quick and easy and prevent future problems if any moisture gets behind the walls again so it can't absorb into the wood. I'm just guessing at this point. I'd say if it was an easy wall to remove, I'd just pull it out and replace it, but if it's load-bearing or has something on the other side you don't want to get into replacing, it might not be feasible.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

:rofl: I'm going to have to check out that verse in Leviticus and see if it really says that! It just reinforces my view that the Bible isn't supposed to be about religion but was an early public health code (though it's easier to get people to comply for fear of eternal damnation than just telling them it's for their own good). They wrote the laws the best they could with what they knew at the time.

Oh yes, the quote is correct. Leviticus 14 also deals with infectious skin diseases, and if you happen to have leprosy, there is advice for that as well.

 

[Danger]

Is that why I hear all of those creaking and popping sounds in the bathroom now?

I'd think that you'd be used to that at your age.

I think I'd lean toward spraying a layer of paint or some other sealer on the walls where you found the mold...I don't know if that's needed or normally done, but I'd just get the cheapest paint I could find and use it to seal in anything I couldn't get out...

Make sure that it's a good solid lead-based paint so it'll poison any spores that try to get through.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, that was fun.

I hope my customer doesn't start calling at 6AM, as I expect.

 

[Moonbear]

So does that mean the job is done? I hope your customer was nice and let you sleep in!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So does that mean the job is done? I hope your customer was nice and let you sleep in!

Yes, :rofl: , I finally called him about 2PM and he said that the project was back-burnered for a couple of weeks. I'm always the last to know. :grumpy:

I want to spray the area with bleach water once more, then try to find a deck cleaner as you mentioned, and then a sealer. But everything has been thoroughly scrubbed with 1:10 mixture of bleach-water once.

Get this, when I got sick the other night, I left my jeans in the dirty laundry pile. When I saw them today, , I carefully rolled them up and carried them to the washer. Almost immediately I was hit with moderate to strong nausea again and had to lie down. I must have some kind of hypersensitivity to this stuff. :yuck:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And I still have to take all of the stones removed to the unclean place outside of town.

 

[Moonbear]

And I still have to take all of the stones removed to the unclean place outside of town.

:rofl: Does that mean you'll still be unclean until sundown?

You know, to this day I have never gotten a straight answer regarding the use of a 1:10 solution of bleach as a disinfectant...I keep trying to find out if they really mean 1:10 of sodium hypochlorite, which is pretty much straight bleach (actually, that's usually a 5% solution, not a 10%), or if they really mean 1:10 of the bleach, so you end up with a 0.5% solution of sodium hypochlorite. I just err on the safe side and use bleach straight from the jug when I really need to be sure something is disinfected in the lab.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

:rofl: Does that mean you'll still be unclean until sundown?

You know, to this day I have never gotten a straight answer regarding the use of a 1:10 solution of bleach as a disinfectant...I keep trying to find out if they really mean 1:10 of sodium hypochlorite, which is pretty much straight bleach (actually, that's usually a 5% solution, not a 10%), or if they really mean 1:10 of the bleach, so you end up with a 0.5% solution of sodium hypochlorite. I just err on the safe side and use bleach straight from the jug when I really need to be sure something is disinfected in the lab.

I know this from somewhere...now where... but 1:10 typically refers to a 0.5% solution. And I am pretty sure that this is also a standard in the food industry. Also, I don't think you can buy pure sodium hypochlorite without a license, so it would seem unlikely to be used as a reference.

But you have to watch it. They have been playing games with concentrations and bottle size. They downsized the bottles and sold a stronger concentration for a time, and now its back to the same old dilution but with the smaller bottles. I watch this since I use bleach in the well system.

 

[Moonbear]

I know this from somewhere...now where... but 1:10 typically refers to a 0.5% solution. And I am pretty sure that this is also a standard in the food industry. Also, I don't think you can buy pure sodium hypochlorite without a license, so it would seem unlikely to be used as a reference.

But you have to watch it. They have been playing games with concentrations and bottle size. They downsized the bottles and sold a stronger concentration for a time, and now its back to the same old dilution but with the smaller bottles. I watch this since I use bleach in the well system.

Yeah, I noticed that recently. I was looking for just cheap bleach to whiten the driveway and sidewalks (it also worked a heck of a lot better than all those expensive herbicides for killing off the weeds growing in the driveway cracks) and was comparing concentrations on the different generic bleaches and realized they are calling "ultra" bleach the 5% stuff now, and the big bottle was only 2.5% or 3% (I don't remember, but when I calculated the price per actual content of sodium hypochlorite, it was actually more expensive than the 5% stuff in the smaller bottle...shopping takes me forever because I'm always looking at actual contents, not just the size of the bottle). I always take extra careful note of sizes and concentrations of things when they suddenly sell 20% extra "free", which usually means they don't want the smaller bottles right next to the not quite as small bottles you were buying before so you don't notice they've reduced the sizes they sell you without reducing the cost.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You know, I usually by Chlorox brand, but last time they were out and I bought the Safeway brand; ultra of course. I just checked they don't even list the concentration any more.

Snakes! If it wasn't for the fact that Safeway bottles almost certainly comes off the same line as the Chlorox bottles, I would be worried. But still, that doesn't even seem legal!

 

[Moonbear]

You know, I usually by Chlorox brand, but last time they were out and I bought the Safeway brand; ultra of course. I just checked they don't even list the concentration any more.

Snakes! If it wasn't for the fact that Safeway bottles almost certainly comes off the same line as the Chlorox bottles, I would be worried. But still, that doesn't even seem legal!

Well, the Chlorox and the store brand here were identical in concentration (the concentration was listed on the labels, but if you don't have 20/20 vision, you better bring along a magnifying glass! I don't think they could have found a smaller type size with thinner lines for the letters and still have it visible). The other bottle I looked at was some other no-frills label, and that bottle was actually the size that bleach jugs used to be, you know, when you got a WHOLE gallon, but it was only about half the concentration.

I really hate when they change the sizes ever-so-subtely to disguise the price increases. To me, that's just sneaky. The odd thing is that I know that costs go up, and right now, with transportation costs rising, everything is going to be increasing in price on the shelves, so I really don't hold it against a company if they have to raise their prices, but when they don't rasie the price and instead put things in smaller bottles (or worse, when they use the same size box for cereal or something like that and then fill it with less cereal), that bugs me. Oh, the other sneaky thing is when they actually sell the bulk items at a higher unit cost than the individual or smaller items. People just assume buying in bulk is cheaper, but it isn't always. I even run into this in the lab. The boxes we buy to store microscope slides cost more if you buy them by the case than if you buy them individually so our technician orders one short of a case so we get the individual price.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh, the other sneaky thing is when they actually sell the bulk items at a higher unit cost than the individual or smaller items. People just assume buying in bulk is cheaper, but it isn't always.

Yep! I often do the shopping, and like you, a visit to the grocery store is an exercise in arithmetic. And I find the same thing. They play every sort of game imaginable, all designed to trick you into spending more for less, but by law they have to post the unit price [per oz. or whatever] and you can always tell the best deals; as long as items like bleach still list the concentrations! I looked again and there is nothing on this Safeway brand bottle. :grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy: Hmmm, I might just do a little checking on this. I really don't think that's legal.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yeah, I noticed that recently. I was looking for just cheap bleach to whiten the driveway and sidewalks (it also worked a heck of a lot better than all those expensive herbicides for killing off the weeds growing in the driveway cracks) and was comparing concentrations on the different generic bleaches and realized they are calling "ultra" bleach the 5% stuff now,

It turns out that I was using Clorox in the bathroom. I had grabbed the bottle from the laundry room, but the bottle in the bathroom was purchased quite some time ago for the well stock. It's a 6% mixture.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Boy, I found this mixture at a site for remodeling; lost the link but it appeared to be a respectable site.

2/3 cup of trisodium phosphate
1/3 cup of detergent
1 quart of house holds bleach
Enough water to make a gallon
Caution: Wear rubber gloves

One other interesting note about the biblical reference. Just by chance I checked another version, and apparently the "spreading mildew" [TBM] was considered to be a form of "house leprosy".