Should space exploration be only the developed world’s adventure?

[Ryan_m_b]

Drakkith had an idea(or still has ,like many other people) that India is spending a huge portion of it's GDP on space program and is starving it's own people to death which is clearly not the case .

I don't think he does and in either case that isn't the point I am agreeing with. What I am suggesting is that things like a space program should not get funding (or at least as much funding) if you are a country that relies on large amounts of foreign aid.

The only exception to this is if there is a good reason as to why a space agency should be funded i.e. it will stimulate the economy in a teach-a-man-to-fish kind of way but I really don't see any argument like this for a space agency.

 

[shashankac655]

I don't think he does and in either case that isn't the point I am agreeing with. What I am suggesting is that things like a space program should not get funding (or at least as much funding) if you are a country that relies on large amounts of foreign aid.

The only exception to this is if there is a good reason as to why a space agency should be funded i.e. it will stimulate the economy in a teach-a-man-to-fish kind of way but I really don't see any argument like this for a space agency.

foreign aid

India's dependence on foreign aid is coming down.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

foreign aid

India's dependence on foreign aid is coming down.

Good. Let's hope that it starts fuelling more resources into combating poverty and less into grand projects that it doesn't need.

 

[shashankac655]

Most people don't take into account of the size of India's population (1.2 Billion-almost 20% of the world's population) when they talk about India's poverty ,it is true that India has a large number of people below poverty line.(it's percentage of the people below poverty line
that should be considered ,whether it's going down or not)

ISRO mostly deals with launching satellites(low cost launches) countries which want to cut costs will turn to India and so it can have tangible benefits(the market is worth around $25 billion) as i have given a link in my previous post(Antrix).It has only recently started it's 'outside low-earth orbit' activities which are predominantly unmanned.

 

[D H]

I agree with Drakkith that money could definitely be better spent in India, especially when you consider that countries like mine donate http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/feb/14/government-defends-1bn-aid-india" . Now I'm not opposed to aid in the slightest but it is a bit insulting when the country you give money to spends money on non-essential things rather than sorting out their own social problems first.

That aid is but a bandaid to India's poverty problem. It does not solve the problem. Forcing India to direct all of its government spending toward feeding their poor will have but one outcome: They will have an even greater poverty problem. Other Asian countries have moved on to developed nation status because they have addressed the causes of their poverty problems. India has been a perpetually-developing nation because those causes are still rampant.

There are many root causes that underlie India's poverty problem. Some of them are excessive corruption, a still byzantine red tape system, an over-reliance on agriculture, a high birth rate, a low education rate, woeful infrastructure, ... Giving aid for the poor doesn't fix those problems. It just makes us in the west feel happy inside that we are doing something.

The only way to solve India's poverty problem is to address those root causes. India needs to build up its infrastructure, fix its political system, continue the economic reforms begun in the 1990s, educate its masses. The way out of the mess is to create a highly educated nation that depends much more on technology, much less on agriculture.

India's space program represents one of the many things that India is doing to pull itself out of its very deep morass. Could that money be better spent elsewhere? Possibly. But feeding the poor? While that is a needed bandaid, it does nothing to solve India's poverty problem.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I'm not saying that India should direct all government spending, it's just that on the basis of the space agency I can't see why it is more important for India's economy than other measures.

Yes it will bring in talent and stimulate Industry but space agencies don't exactly have a good track record of making money.

 

[MarcoD]

I'm not saying that India should direct all government spending, it's just that on the basis of the space agency I can't see why it is more important for India's economy than other measures.

Yes it will bring in talent and stimulate Industry but space agencies don't exactly have a good track record of making money.

Well, I don't know about the last statement. NASA was attributed with bringing forth little goodies like the digital watch. Of course, you can't repeat that effort, but you can employ a lot of engineers and see it as an investment in a healthy climate for a high-tech industry which will pay itself off eventually. (Though I guess it would pay off more if you would invest in, say, electric cars. But you can do both and make a buck with space adventures.)

 

[estro]

That aid is but a bandaid to India's poverty problem. It does not solve the problem. Forcing India to direct all of its government spending toward feeding their poor will have but one outcome: They will have an even greater poverty problem. Other Asian countries have moved on to developed nation status because they have addressed the causes of their poverty problems. India has been a perpetually-developing nation because those causes are still rampant.

There are many root causes that underlie India's poverty problem. Some of them are excessive corruption, a still byzantine red tape system, an over-reliance on agriculture, a high birth rate, a low education rate, woeful infrastructure, ... Giving aid for the poor doesn't fix those problems. It just makes us in the west feel happy inside that we are doing something.

The only way to solve India's poverty problem is to address those root causes. India needs to build up its infrastructure, fix its political system, continue the economic reforms begun in the 1990s, educate its masses. The way out of the mess is to create a highly educated nation that depends much more on technology, much less on agriculture.

India's space program represents one of the many things that India is doing to pull itself out of its very deep morass. Could that money be better spent elsewhere? Possibly. But feeding the poor? While that is a needed bandaid, it does nothing to solve India's poverty problem.

This post is a gem.
Can't agree more.

 

[shashankac655]

This post is a gem.
Can't agree more.

me too

 

[shashankac655]

I can't see why it is more important for India's economy than other measures.

Yes it will bring in talent and stimulate Industry but space agencies don't exactly have a good track record of making money.

Again you are asking the same question ,Space technology is not and will not be more important than other measures ,it is just one of many things India is trying to do that is related to modern technology.

The reason why space technology has very little tangible benefits now is because the pioneers (US and USSR)of this technology were not interested it.
http://laico.org/v2020resource/files/remote_rural_population.htm

space industry

 

[Ryan_m_b]

http://laico.org/v2020resource/files/remote_rural_population.htm

Now this is the kind of thing I was talking about! Something to show how an Indian space agency could benefit the big problems the country is facing.

 

[shashankac655]

Now this is the kind of thing I was talking about! Something to show how an Indian space agency could benefit the big problems the country is facing.

Also look at the link "space industry"...$120 billion now and growing ,now do you accept that we make money with space technology?

A lot of people say that what we need is a cheap way to launch objects into space. Actually, keeping launches expensive is good for US national security. Expensive launches means fewer countries capable of launching objects into space.

During the Cold war the two countries did not care about tangible benefits or about reducing costs and the security reason is stopping the US from doing it now.

 

[Drakkith]

It would have been helpful to have information such as this at the start of the thread, but oh well. That pretty much nullifies the entire point of the thread, since it seems pretty obvious now that there IS a tangible benefit other than the OP's original ideas. I'm all for it if it makes the country money.

 

[shashankac655]

It would have been helpful to have information such as this at the start of the thread, but oh well. That pretty much nullifies the entire point of the thread, since it seems pretty obvious now that there IS a tangible benefit other than the OP's original ideas. I'm all for it if it makes the country money.

Why shouldn’t we arouse public interest in space in the developing world? It make more people want to be a part of it ,it will attract people with talent, it will create jobs not just as scientists but also in the manufacture of aerospace products ,space technology itself can be commercialized (it already has) ISRO has launched many satellites of many countries and will continue to do that ,the “space industry” is not running at loss ,profits are being made and it will grow, when you commercialize anything it will not run out of money so easily even in the developing world ,there are always risks involved in trying out anything new and big. The “space industry” can be privatized and private companies can be given a chance to come with their ideas and government need not spend all on its own this lead to even more employment in the industry and will reduce costs. All this won’t happen over night or in a few years but the developing countries are capable of doing it in the near future, economies are growing fast in the developing world and as years roll on space technology is going to get cheaper and not more expensive like any other technology.

... Frankly, I think national pride is the primary reason most countries have space programs. If that's the reason, fine, but don't try to spin it as actually having tangeable benefit.

i have said a lot about tangible benefits before in the thread even in the proceeding pages,In the OP I mentioned about space technology most of it was just technology because space technology is a part of modern technology and there is nothing wrong in developing it when you know how to use it for practical benefits,i was under the assumption that everybody here are aware of the benefits of space technology that's why i didn't give any links but that wasn't the case. You and other people didn't know and that didn't stop you from coming up with all kinds of baseless arguments that space technology has nothing to do with any sort of development and it is only for those countries who have no other means for shelling out extra cash.I accept the did make a mistake of not sharing all that before.

There is no such thing as a technology that is destined to remain expensive forever and that it cannot have tangible benefits, every technology will have tangible benefits but for some it will take some time to realize it and the right attitude(reducing costs) just because some countries don’t want it to happen doesn’t mean other countries have to wait for them to do it. Space technology is young and was primarily developed by the US and USSR for national pride and they want it to remain expensive, the tangible benefits of it have not been given a thought for a long time and this is only the beginning.
Mining the moon
Of course it is difficult to mine on the moon because there is no air on the moon and traditional methods of mining will not work(and it might be several decades away and may be a 100 years away) but that is not a reason for not thinking about it .if you want technologies to get cheaper you can dream a lot but if you are under the assumption that certain technologies are destined to be horrifically expensive and useless you are certainly wrong.
The USA landed it’s men on the moon several times ,if only you and the USSR had thought of such tangible benefits you could have diverted all the money you spent on that pointless production of nuclear weapons to develop such new technologies that could have benefited humanity today.

 

[cmb]

I think the logic of the question is backwards. You could argue you are a developed country if you can undertake space exploration.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Mining the moon is a hole different kettle of fish that definitely is nowhere near a strong argument for commercialisation of space, especially for developing countries. Even in developed countries the huge expensive of such a project could be better directed towards what I like to call refining, recycling and redesigning strategies that seek to improve efficacy, re-usability and dependence.

Mining the moon is a big pet peeve of mine, especially things like He3 proponents. Hint: He3 is a proposed fuel for hypothetical second generation nuclear fusion reactors. So far we are still tackling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER#Timeline_and_current_status" project will start which if they go to plan will give us a viable blueprint for first generation commercial nuclear fussion sometime in the early second half of this century. Proponents of moon-mined He3 for 2nd Gen nuclear fusion don't have much of a leg to stand on in my opinion because they aren't just putting the horse before the cart, they're putting the cart before the wheel (not to mention the elephant in the room that He3 could be bred in dedicated 1st Gen fusion reactors).

Finally what you are talking about is akin to building a huge quarrying and refining industry down the end of a ~400,000km toll road where the cost to travel is upwards of $10,000 per kg. Yes better technology could lower that figure but there is no guarantee that it will, large space based projects take decades and decades and cost billions. Frequently they experience failures and cancellations.

But all this is largely irrelevant because this isn't a discussion about whether or not space science has tangible benefits, it's about whether or not a developing country should invest in space science over it's development. So could we please stick to the topic and only talk about tangible links between space science and development; specifically space science originating from the developing country (e.g. no "GPS helps aid worker" arguments).

 

[cmb]

Proponents of moon-mined He3 for 2nd Gen nuclear fusion don't have much of a leg to stand on in my opinion

...plus that the concentration of ³He in lunar 'deposits' are barely that much more concentrated than the ³He in terrestrial helium deposits.

On Earth the ratio of 3He:4He is ~1:10,000 whereas the lunar regolith (top few m) has a ~1:3,000 ratio of the stuff. Sure, the concentration is higher, but worth going to the Moon for??

³He is extremely useful stuff, mind, independent of future nuclear fusion purposes. There is currently a huge shortage due to failure of oversight on behalf of those who were supposed to be the custodians of such things. I think the going rate for ³He is currently "not available at any commercial price"!

 

[shashankac655]

Mining the moon is a hole different kettle of fish that definitely is nowhere near a strong argument for commercialisation of space,...

The strong argument for commercialization of space in this thread was about satellite launches ,Telemedicine etc and depending more on technology developed on our own and depending less on technology tranfer from other countries and depending less on agriculture.it is what vast majority of ISRO's budget is meant for (benefits)and about that i was talking things that might be 100 years away.

 

[shashankac655]

growing profits

 

[shashankac655]

it's about whether or not a developing country should invest in space science over it's development.

Over it's development, really?

http://laico.org/v2020resource/files/remote_rural_population.htm

space industry

growing profits

W2M
It is a part of it's development not over it's.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Over it's development, really?

W2M
It is a part of it's development not over it's.

If you had posted succinct things like this long ago then this thread would not have needed to go on for so long. Having said that do you have any evidence of a political mandate to use the funds from ISRO to help alleviate poverty in the country?

I'd also like to point out that throughout this thread you have changed what you are talking about many times and been quite vague. This started out as a suggestion that the developing world should develop it's own independent technology, then implied some sort of inspiring project. It took several pages for this to boil down to the tangible benefits of ISRO to the Indian people.

 

[DoggerDan]

How is the underdeveloped world supposed to pay for space exploration? It's incredibly expensive.

 

[shashankac655]

If you had posted succinct things like this long ago then this thread would not have needed to go on for so long. Having said that do you have any evidence of a political mandate to use the funds from ISRO to help alleviate poverty in the country?

I'd also like to point out that throughout this thread you have changed what you are talking about many times and been quite vague. This started out as a suggestion that the developing world should develop it's own independent technology, then implied some sort of inspiring project. It took several pages for this to boil down to the tangible benefits of ISRO to the Indian people.

I had mixed feelings when the first Indian unmanned lunar mission came under sharp criticism, the most common argument was that “should a country with such a poverty rate ,malnutrition and one the lowest per capita GDP really be spending on development of such technologies that are usually done in the in developed world”?
One of my arguments is that for too long we have depended on the west for sophisticated technologies.
The developing world cannot endlessly depend on the west when it comes to science and technology .
There has to be some attempt from the developing world to do something on their own and just buying everything from the west doesn’t do anything good.

If you had posted succinct things like this long ago then this thread would not have needed to go on for so long. Having said that do you have any evidence of a political mandate to use the funds from ISRO to help alleviate poverty in the country?

I'd also like to point out that throughout this thread you have changed what you are talking about many times and been quite vague. This started out as a suggestion that the developing world should develop it's own independent technology, then implied some sort of inspiring project. It took several pages for this to boil down to the tangible benefits of ISRO to the Indian people.

Firstly your suggestions for alleviating poverty itself is flawed if you read D H's post again you will know that ,you cannot remove poverty by just feeding the poor or just giving them benefits ,you have create a kind of an environment that stresses on technology and education and ISRO is doing that.
I have clearly said in my OP that ISRO deals mostly with satellite launches which are for tangible benefits and very few people here were aware of tangible benefits that can be offered by space programs(commercialization).
And you have very little idea about the problems of India(you cannot describe India’s problems with just one word –“POVERTY”) and how different and complicated it is compared to other developing countries or the rest of the world. India is almost like ‘the entire continent of Africa pulled together into a single country and having 20% of the world’s population and having more middle class than the entire population of the United States and more billionaires than the UK and is one of the fasted growing large economies in the world and has lifted over 300 million people out of poverty in the last 10 years and is lifting 40 million people out of poverty every year but still has more people living in poverty than the entire sub-Saharan Africa and India is one of the newly industrialized countries in the world(but still significantly agrarian) it has around six religions ,300 languages ,854 dialects ,968 political parties and India was never ONE COUNTRY since theMauryan empire (over 2000 years ago)until the british came and established a centralized government in the country ,there is no sense of a strong unity in the country(which is crucial for development ,even after 65 years) we still have the infamous caste system which I think is the primary reason as to why India is not developed today .The politics is dominated by caste system and money and for most Indians, caste and religion comes before country(or nation) There is no one solution for all these problems and nowhere have I suggested that ISRO is the answer for all the problems and nowhere have I suggested that ISRO should going to explore space(because it mostly deals with satellite launches) to the same magnitude as NASA or the ESA or any other big space faring nation.Other Asian countries got the developed nation status because their diversity and problems were nowhere near India’s.

Secondly ,i don't deny that i was quite vague , my literary skills are not good enough for expressing everything in just one post and I am not an expert debater( I have only just started ) but I think I am getting better(if not ,definitely not worse) on the top of all that ,posts like these frustrated me and drew me mad!

ISRO neither has the capability nor the intention to match NASA or the ESA and other big organizations anytime soon, ISRO’s ambitions and capabilities are modest compared to NASA and everything is done at lowest cost possible even then ISRO is not really so unsuccessful.

outside criticism is the least of your worries if your people are dying of The Plague because money is diverted from funding a modernized sanitation system to a pointless space program.

You talk as if the Indian government is spending a huge portion of the GDP on space programs this nothing but baseless hype created by people who enjoy criticizing India's progress.

I didn't say that it is - the issue here is that you are suggesting it should. This is your thread! You started it by asking that question!

I would like to point out that this thread is partly a demonstration of how people in the west jump to conclusions about India’s space program without solid evidence or any knowledge at all about the country or the organization and are unwilling to read the OP properly before posting. And drakkith asked the same question and I have given him the reply, I agreed that I should have shared all that before but that is no excuse for others to come up with their own ideas about countries or their space programs with such rude posts!

I think I have said everything I wanted to say(I won’t come back to this thread again) , if I have troubled you I am sorry.

 

[mishrashubham]

Secondly ,i don't deny that i was quite vague , my literary skills are not good enough for expressing everything in just one post and I am not an expert debater( I have only just started ) but I think I am getting better(if not ,definitely not worse) on the top of all that ,posts like these frustrated me and drew me mad!


I would like to point out that this thread is partly a demonstration of how people in the west jump to conclusions about India’s space program without solid evidence or any knowledge at all about the country or the organization and are unwilling to read the OP properly before posting. And drakkith asked the same question and I have given him the reply, I agreed that I should have shared all that before but that is no excuse for others to come up with their own ideas about countries or their space programs with such rude posts!

I think I have said everything I wanted to say(I won’t come back to this thread again) , if I have troubled you I am sorry.

Calm down there. As a fellow citizen, I understand your frustration and desperation. Still, an internet forum is not the right place to vent it all out. Yes we have some unique problems and we will work towards solving them.

 

[Proton Soup]

if you can launch satellites, then you can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. that's more or less it in a nutshell. how many non-nuclear nations are pursuing a space program?

 

[DoggerDan]

if you can launch satellites, then you can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. that's more or less it in a nutshell.

The world's first practical ICBM, the A9/10, was developed in Germany during WWII under Werner von Braun in Projekt Amerika.

how many non-nuclear nations are pursuing a space program?

The level of technology required to develop either is roughly the same, and if you plan to have nukes, a TBM is the most secure delivery platform.

 

[shashankac655]

if you can launch satellites, then you can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. that's more or less it in a nutshell. how many non-nuclear nations are pursuing a space program?

Agni V

our space program has very little to do with it,there are separate organizations that are meant for defense ,i don't want any "ISRO is a cover up for India's missile programs" arguments ,
Everything India develops is open for everybody to see.
i don't know how this is related to the thread but here it is.

 

[shashankac655]

more economical benefits

http://www.deloitte.com.br/publicacoes/2007/A&D_Overview_Indian_Space_Sector2010.pdf

 

[Proton Soup]

the biggest economic benefit is protection against invasion by hostile nations.

 

[shashankac655]

the biggest economic benefit is protection against invasion by hostile nations.

No it is just one of them

 

[DoggerDan]

Those who attain the means to climb the hill are the ones who have the means to climb the hill. Should we give free rides aboard the ISS to those few tribes of humans still living in the jungle?

 

[shashankac655]

Those who attain the means to climb the hill are the ones who have the means to climb the hill. Should we give free rides aboard the ISS to those few tribes of humans still living in the jungle?

What do you mean?

You think we live in jungles ? http://india_resource.tripod.com/technology.htm

Economic history of India

The Article is locked ,don't tell me it is tampered.

We don't need your expensive ISS ,in a few decades we will build our own, with 1/10th of the cost,we will develop 10 times more useful technologies that will benefit the common man.
Before you comment again ,take a good look at the last 3 pages of this thread,think twice before post again. YOU DON'T WANT ME TO GET MAD AGAIN

 

[Drakkith]

You think we live in jungles ?

I doubt he means that. It's most likely an analogy or whatever.

We don't need your expensive ISS ,in a few decades we will build our own, with 1/10th of the cost,we will develop 10 times more useful technologies that will benefit the common man.

You have no way of knowing that.

Before you comment again ,take a good look at the last 3 pages of this thread,think twice before post again. YOU DON'T WANT ME TO GET MAD AGAIN

You are treating this thread like it's a personal attack on you or something. Calm down or it will be locked. Though I'm surprised it isn't already to be honest.

 

[mishrashubham]

You are treating this thread like it's a personal attack on you or something. Calm down or it will be locked. Though I'm surprised it isn't already to be honest.

He has already been given this advice.

Calm down there. As a fellow citizen, I understand your frustration and desperation. Still, an internet forum is not the right place to vent it all out. Yes we have some unique problems and we will work towards solving them.

 

[Proton Soup]

What do you mean?

You think we live in jungles ? http://india_resource.tripod.com/technology.htm

Economic history of India

The Article is locked ,don't tell me it is tampered.

We don't need your expensive ISS ,in a few decades we will build our own, with 1/10th of the cost,we will develop 10 times more useful technologies that will benefit the common man.
Before you comment again ,take a good look at the last 3 pages of this thread,think twice before post again. YOU DON'T WANT ME TO GET MAD AGAIN

yeah, that is certainly interesting. India has slid backwards, while south korea has accelerated forward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Per_capita_GDP_of_South_Asian_economies_&_SKorea_(1950-1995).png

and i don't think it's got anything to do with SK's space program(?), though SK does have an effective foil against invasion since the war(USA). i think it's mostly got to do with SK's emphasis on education. SK's rank is currently 8, compared to India at 145. change this one thing so that you outrank China, and India will become the regional power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index