Math/Physics Double Major Benefits for Math/Physics Grad School

[Anonymous217]

when applying to Math grad school?
Math major: 17 grad courses
Math/Physics double major: 8 math grad courses, 4 physics grad courses

when applying to Physics grad school?
Physics major: 12 physics grad courses
Math/Physics double major: 8 math grad courses, 4 physics grad courses

This is assuming everything else constant (ie. grades in each class being consistent, same research, internships, extracurriculars, awards, papers, etc.). Would the double major at all help other than giving you choice on whether to apply to physics or math grad school? It seems like it's best to just go with either a pure Math major or a pure Physics major for a safer bet to get into a top grad school in that respective department. That is, if you're sure on which grad school you're going to, the double major provides no benefits. Is this true?

 

[negru]

Depends what courses.

But for math grad school physics courses=worthless 100%. There's no math you can learn in a physics course that a proper math course couldn't teach you. For physics grad school it depends what field...and even more so the courses. Ie diff geom>>solid state, but qft>>number theory for high energy. You get the idea

Now assuming all involved courses are directly relevant to your field..hmm

 

[Anonymous217]

Yeah I figured. If I'm heading for math grad school and keep the double major, I'd basically have about 9-10 * 4 wasted units that I could have spent in math courses. So a pure math major would be best by far.

If I'm heading for physics grad school, I could still major in Math, but take electives that will help my physics understanding. So either/or would be fine.

And if I want the most effective application to get into a top grad school as possible, I better decide on choosing whether to double major or to single major in Math right now. Is there seriously no double major benefits other than bragging rights? I might as well just only major in Math and get down as many graduate courses as possible (as well as other stuff of course).

 

[Ryker]

Is there seriously no double major benefits other than bragging rights?

As far as formal recognition is concerned, why would you expect them to be in the first place?

 

[Anonymous217]

I would have at least thought that a double major would be considered "impressive" in admissions and show that you can handle a tough courseload. But now that I know that a Physics major is almost entirely useless in Math grad school, there must really be no point in double majoring if the intent is to go into Math.

I guess I'm going to have to change my entire four year planning, moving around my Math courses, taking out the Physics, and putting in more Math.

 

[Ryker]

How many more classes does one in the US take when double majoring in comparison to a full course load (i.e. including all non-major classes) when single majoring?

 

[Anonymous217]

I'm not sure about it in general, but for my college (Berkeley), the maximum you can take is 20.5 units per semester as long as you graduate within 8 semesters. There's a cap at 130 units if you stay longer than 8 semesters. So it seems that in my university at least, there would be no benefit to double majoring. I guess I'm now just a math major. I'll let it sink in for about a week before I start changing my enrollment in my spring semester classes though.

 

[lubuntu]

I am sorry but 17 graduate classes!? You do realize that most people take 2 graduate courses a semester? So that is something like 8 semesters worth of grad classes! Focus less of number of grad classes and doing well in the courses required for your degree.

 

[Anonymous217]

It was purely a hypothetical question. I'm taking 2 per semester sophomore year and 3 per semester junior and senior year. Some of them will probably be just seminars and etc., but I just counted them because they're in the 2XX digits, and belong to the graduate department. I'm not really sure if you'd count them as true graduate courses though.

 

[lubuntu]

It was purely a hypothetical question. I'm taking 2 per semester sophomore year and 3 per semester junior and senior year. Some of them will probably be just seminars and etc., but I just counted them because they're in the 2XX digits, and belong to the graduate department. I'm not really sure if you'd count them as true graduate courses though.

Wow that pretty impressive. How were you able to be up to the point you can take grad classes by sophomore year. Surely you've yet to take all the requirements to finish your degree. Just remember your coursework counts for a lot but research is equally if not more important.

 

[negru]

Well for now I'd just focus on taking whatever courses interest you, and decide later on the exact major. I think I changed my major a few times (between physics SB, to physics SB + math AB, to both SB, right now to math-physics SB). The actual name of your degree is useless anyway, no will care about the label, they'll just look at what courses you took. I'm just going with the major that allows me to graduate and take only courses I want (ie, no lab courses).

Also, maybe by junior or so year, you'll hopefully realize what field of math you like most, and then drop all math courses not related to it, and only take seminars/research related to that field. So don't expect whatever you're planning now to hold.

 

[Anonymous217]

Wow that pretty impressive. How were you able to be up to the point you can take grad classes by sophomore year. Surely you've yet to take all the requirements to finish your degree. Just remember your coursework counts for a lot but research is equally if not more important.

I somewhat started early by doing summer courses and so I completed my lower division requirements by the time I became a freshman (multivar, linear alg., etc.). I'm now doing my upper division requirements and will only have a few left by the time I'm a sophomore (I will also finish all my GEs since I'm finishing the last couple next summer). So my plan is to take at least one grad course (per semester) along with the remaining upper div sophomore year. Then I could technically graduate after my sophomore year, but I'm deciding to stay for two more years and stock up on grad courses and research.

I think that with this track solely as a math major, I'd have a very solid application with 15+ grad courses, and enough research under my belt. Hopefully I can get a good reputation with some of the Berkeley grad professors and all of this will probably make the best application I can make in order to get into a top grad school. This is all hypothetical of course, especially the number of grad courses.
(And if I want, I could apply to grad schools both Junior year and Senior year, giving me two chances to get into the top schools, provided there isn't a limit on re-applying if I don't get in of course).

Well for now I'd just focus on taking whatever courses interest you, and decide later on the exact major. I think I changed my major a few times (between physics SB, to physics SB + math AB, to both SB, right now to math-physics SB). The actual name of your degree is useless anyway, no will care about the label, they'll just look at what courses you took. I'm just going with the major that allows me to graduate and take only courses I want (ie, no lab courses).

Also, maybe by junior or so year, you'll hopefully realize what field of math you like most, and then drop all math courses not related to it, and only take seminars/research related to that field. So don't expect whatever you're planning now to hold.

But if I decide later on the major, then I'll be behind on my progress and I'd have wasted my time on worthless units (eg. taking quantum and then applying to math grad). The only reason I'm majoring in math is because I want to apply to math grad school and the most effective way to do that courseload-wise is to stock up on solely math courses. This will only allow me to have a math major.

I can figure out what specific type of math I want to concentrate in as I progress, but the main focus I'm currently on is whether or not to drop the double major, which I currently think is the best option. Goodbye physics. I'll miss you. :(

 

[negru]

Yeah I wouldn't go too deep into physics if I were you, especially not grad courses. The time you'd spend could be better spent elsewhere. Not to say that it's not interesting, worthwhile etc but you need a really pragmatic approach to ensure best chances for grad school. If you want courses just for fun, I'd recommend stuff like psychology, not grad level qm.

 

[Ryker]

So my plan is to take at least one grad course (per semester) along with the remaining upper div sophomore year. Then I could technically graduate after my sophomore year, but I'm deciding to stay for two more years and stock up on grad courses and research.

I guess staying for another two years makes sense from getting the experience perspective, but if you're really staying on just to stock up on grad courses and research, wouldn't it make more sense, not to mention be cheaper, to do actual research in grad school, along with taking those same grad courses?

 

[Anonymous217]

Yeah I wouldn't go too deep into physics if I were you, especially not grad courses. The time you'd spend could be better spent elsewhere. Not to say that it's not interesting, worthwhile etc but you need a really pragmatic approach to ensure best chances for grad school. If you want courses just for fun, I'd recommend stuff like psychology, not grad level qm.

Yeah, I was initially on a very accelerated pace (doubling up on my physics courses) so that I'd be taking upper division quantum sophomore year, graduate quantum junior year, and then graduate quantum field theory senior year. It wouldn't have been that hard to follow that pace either. However, now that I know those courses are worthless for math grad school, I'm opting out on taking any more physics courses and so, I will be taking only math courses from here on out (save for 2-3 GEs in the summer).

I guess staying for another two years makes sense from getting the experience perspective, but if you're really staying on just to stock up on grad courses and research, wouldn't it make more sense, not to mention be cheaper, to do actual research in grad school, along with taking those same grad courses?

Well, I'm getting a full ride (well, technically I have to pay about $1 to 2,000 for other expenses) at Berkeley so it's not really much of a cost to stay for two more years. And I want to be sure to get into a top graduate math school. I could probably graduate in two years and get into an average grad school, but why if I can stay in undergraduate for two more years at a very small cost? And the Berkeley grad courses would probably be better than the grad courses at the average grad school.
I doubt I could get into any really strong grad schools in two years with only 2-3 grad courses under my belt and minimal research.

I might start applying for top grad schools my Junior year and if I do get into any of them, I'd graduate within a heartbeat, but it seems unlikely considering that I'd be the typical applicant (average research, 8-9 grad courses, extracurriculars, nothing really standing out). If I don't, I can reapply Senior year and almost definitely get into at least one with a very solid application.

 

[Landau]

If you want courses just for fun, I'd recommend stuff like psychology, not grad level qm.

Well, that's a matter of taste of course ;) I'd choose grad level qm over psychology any time...

I agree that a physics degree is pretty much useless in math grad school. (I have a Bsc. in both, now doing Msc. in math.) The other way around, however, might be of some (limited) use. By the way, I would definitely concentrate on getting good grades in your grad courses (well, all courses) rather than doing as many as you can. A few graduate A's look more impressive than lots of B's or C's.

 

[negru]

Yeah there's no benefit in graduating early, not even in your junior year.

 

[Anonymous217]

Yeah there's no benefit in graduating early, not even in your junior year.

Yeah, I was just thinking about applying junior year to see what grad schools I would get into (as long as re-applying is fine of course), and I would only graduate early if by some random chance I do get into a top grad school, but by the time I'm actually applying junior year, I probably wouldn't be taking it all that seriously. It would just give me some experience in knowing what to get done for applications.

 

[Anonymous217]

I had a question. Is taking more than 2 math grad courses per semester (say 3) difficult? If it's typical for a student to take 2 grad courses, isn't that because they're also busy with other stuff such as research, internships, etc.? It feels like if that's the case, I could take some other courses in conjunction with the 2 grad courses since I wouldn't be doing that as rigorously as they do because I would only be an undergrad sophomore/junior/senior.

I guess I'd just have to wait until sophomore year when I get to experience my first two grad courses. I'm simply curious. For example, almost everybody advised me not to take an upper div math course the first semester as a freshman and I ignored them; it turned out to be pretty standard (I prefer abstract over computational and so the jump from LD to UD wasn't so bad for me). Obviously, grad courses won't be "easier" than upper div courses, but I'm wondering if it's really going to be as hard as people say it is. It's usually exaggerated.

 

[negru]

It's very exaggerated. Once you get used to the workload 3-4 courses per semester is very doable. But if any opportunity to do research appears do that instead of a course.

 

[Newtime]

It's very exaggerated. Once you get used to the workload 3-4 courses per semester is very doable. But if any opportunity to do research appears do that instead of a course.

I would rather say that it is often very exaggerated. Two of the graduate courses I'm taking right now are fine in terms of workload and inherent difficulty of material but the third is a whole different story. Starting out by taking two would be my advice.

 

[Anonymous217]

It's very exaggerated. Once you get used to the workload 3-4 courses per semester is very doable. But if any opportunity to do research appears do that instead of a course.

I would rather say that it is often very exaggerated. Two of the graduate courses I'm taking right now are fine in terms of workload and inherent difficulty of material but the third is a whole different story. Starting out by taking two would be my advice.

That's what I'm planning. I'll be doing 2 graduate courses and 1-2 upper div electives each semester Sophomore year and then I'll try to get some research/internships/publications done Junior and Senior year along with just 2-3 graduate courses per semester. At least that's what the plan is. I'm not exactly sure how I"ll be able to get some research/internships/publications done, but I'm sure I'd figure it out one and a half years from now.

With this plan, I'll have about 12-16 graduate courses done along with a good deal of research/publications/internships. This should make me a solid applicant. Anything else I'm missing? Probably awards?

 

[ns2675]

Wow, I'm in a similar position (albeit a year behind, just about) at UCLA. I'm a sophomore now, and next year I'm planning on starting with the real analysis grad sequence here, and from that point on taking two or three grad courses a quarter. I should have around ten or twelve by the time I graduate, though that's on the quarter system.
What kind of research exactly are you planning on doing? That is honestly my biggest concern with my own future application; are you thinking of an REU or something else? I also have to finish up my GE's; the department said I can do them over the summer at a community college, but that's going to eat up significantly the amount of time I would otherwise have for research.

 

[Anonymous217]

What kind of research exactly are you planning on doing? That is honestly my biggest concern with my own future application; are you thinking of an REU or something else? I also have to finish up my GE's; the department said I can do them over the summer at a community college, but that's going to eat up significantly the amount of time I would otherwise have for research.

I really have no clue. I'm not even sure how the process works, but I did want to get some research done next summer while I finish my GEs like you are.

 

[negru]

I'd personally recommend considering doing research with profs at your own school instead of a REU. (unless the REU is very prestigious). A summer seems like a very short time to really get a relationship going with a prof (though it might be just me). You'd really like to know the profs writing your letters better. Although you can do quality work in a summer and get a good rec based on your technical skills etc, you can do the same quality work, AND take 3-4 classes, hang out at events, etc with a local prof and that can really add an extra layer to the rec.

Plus you'll know beforehand how the profs are. Just getting into a random REU with some random prof you know nothing about seems like a bigger risk. Also, you'll probably want to do research during the year as well. Starting a whole new project in the summer can be refreshing, but it might not be productive. Especially since research in math can be pretty tedious. You shouldn't be surprised if you find yourself working intensely on a problem for a year with little results. Also, it might be considered a bit impolite to interrupt your research with a local prof to go somewhere else over the summer.

Anyway, just keep in mind the various options and advantages when choosing.

 

[Vanadium 50]

My answer is neither.

The point of college is to learn as much as you can, not to try and impress graduate admission committees. A side effect of this is that committees are impressed by people who learn as much as they can where they are, rather than spending their time angling to go elsewhere.

 

[negru]

The point of college is to learn as much as you can, not to try and impress graduate admission committees.

Sometimes setting an extra external goal can help exactly with that. If in the process of impressing the adcoms you get to learn a lot, what's the problem.

 

[twofish-quant]

Sometimes setting an extra external goal can help exactly with that. If in the process of impressing the adcoms you get to learn a lot, what's the problem.

Because it turns out what impresses the admissions committees may or may not be in your interest. In my case it wasn't.

I was not the perfect graduate student applicant, because I took humanities seriously and was willing to settle for a B in my physics classes if it meant that I had more time to study politics and poetry. I didn't get into the "top graduate schools."

However, twenty years on, I think things worked out pretty well for me.

One thing that I learned is that if your life revolves around impressing other people, you are giving them a lot of power to use and abuse you. The graduate school committee just doesn't care about you. If in trying to impress them, you totally mess up your life, it's not their problem. It's yours.

 

[Anonymous217]

Because it turns out what impresses the admissions committees may or may not be in your interest. In my case it wasn't.
...
If in trying to impress them, you totally mess up your life, it's not their problem. It's yours.

I'd have to agree with negru. I usually set an external goal and it helps me get along throughout the process. I'm not taking these courses and etc. solely to entertain the admissions committees. It helps me build guidelines for what I should accomplish in my undergraduate years and where I compare against others. If I didn't have this goal, I would probably be just as ambitious and take graduate courses as early as possible, but I wouldn't be as aware of certain aspects that one should also accomplish, such as doing research early to build a solid reputation with a professor or getting a job (TA, grader, etc.).

I'd personally recommend considering doing research with profs at your own school instead of a REU. (unless the REU is very prestigious).
...
Anyway, just keep in mind the various options and advantages when choosing.

Thanks for the tips! I was hoping to start doing research (some type) in the summer and hopefully I can, I would extend it to my Sophomore year, then the next summer and so on until I graduate. This would be about 3 years of solid research and if this does happen, I could always cut down on certain graduate courses. Working with a professor sounds best for this type. I guess I'll start asking around as I get to know my upper div professors Spring semester.

 

[QuantumP7]

Have you thought about grad school in Mathematical or Theoretical Physics. It seems to be that plenty of grad school classes in both would be beneficial when you apply to grad schools in that area. And it seems that you really like both math and physics.

 

[negru]

Well, mathematical physics is fine, but I think it's better to either start as physics or math and then move to it. To do research in mathematical physics means you should be able to do research level work in both physics and math. You'd be better off just doing research in whatever subject you master first. Trying to master both will obviously take longer, and your goal is getting to research asap. Having said that, I have no idea what the competition is like for this field.

By mathematical physics I mean rigorous stuff like axiomatic quantum field theory.

 

[hadsed]

People change fields all the time. You're certainly not bound to what you do research in as an undergraduate for the rest of your life. The idea is that you need to convince people you can do research. That is, people (ie grad school admissions) should see that you're capable of taking something ridiculously over your head and making some sense out of it, and if you can find something new about it and share it with the scientific community, all the better. The main skills are resourcefulness and problem-solving.

 

[negru]

Well yeah, but it should be related to the field you're applying to. I'm not sure how much doing math research will help with your physics grad school application (given probably none of the adcoms will understand what you did - I'm concerned people in het won't understand what I did in my specialized het area).

For best results, you need to set your goals straight as early as possible.