Is going to lecture a huge waste of time?

[mathwonk]

I did teach to earn a living and share knowledge, but my profession was also research mathematician. To do that I needed to know a lot and constantly learn more. As such I took a lot of classes and still attend some. Of course there are many slackers in every class and every profession, but the best students always go to every class and read every assignment do every homework and add to that by doing outside work as well. They also go to office hours if they are wise. Many students made the same excuses to me about coming to office hours, ignoring the fact that I was available at all hours by appointment, and would stay as long as they needed, and sometimes stayed up to 3 hours. It was the students who would not make time, not the professors. Of course there are exceptions, and some professors are stingy with their time, but not at my university.

As others have observed, just as it is a skill to impart knowledge it is also a skill to derive knowledge from others. And you may need practice in that skill. Give it a try. Learn to listen, learn to question intelligently. I also had a hard time learning this. Once I realized that while I was fuming at the poor job my professor was doing, my buddy who was a lot smarter than I am, drew him out very skillfully with a great question.

Maybe your prof thinks the students are lazy and has a hard time getting himself psyched up for the lecture. Try asking an intelligent question to light him up. I used to skip class too, back when I was an unsuccessful student blaming my problems on my professors. I'm saying this now late in life as a successful scientist and academic (although it took me a long time to learn to become one). And my wife is a successful physician. She didn't skip class either. Good luck to you.

 

[hadsed]

Yes, but you're getting paid at work. In college, it's the other way. If someone thinks sitting in lecture is a waste of time, why in heaven are they paying for it?

I'm a little confused at your first comment about why people won't just leave. I see a degree as proof that I can do stuff. I pay for it because I need that proof so that people will let me do real stuff and earn much, much more money than I've put into that piece of paper. Part of it is also so that I can spend some time learning and practicing stuff, but I could've done that without paying tuition.

I find that my best skill isn't really anything more than figuring out stuff that kicks my butt. How do I show others that I can really do this? I don't see classes as one of the more important resources at my school (I know this sounds really weird). If I could just take a book to a professor and say hey, can you answer me some questions if I have any on this? Then spend the semester doing it, and at the end show him what I've learned. Obviously this could never work if everyone tried to do it, but I don't see how it's a negative thing to complain about an inadequate system.

I'm not saying I have any ideas, but I can still say that it sucks.

 

[turbo]

Engineering school had huge lecture halls. It would have been easy to skip lectures, unnoticed. I never skipped lectures. I took my lecture notes in cryptic little remarks in the margins of the texts and underlined relevant portions of the text. That way, all my notes were in the context of the way that the lecturers presented the materials in the text. It is naive to think that when a prof draws up his/her exams, (s)he is going to adhere strictly to the text and not favor their own interpretation of the materials. If you are studying in a demanding field, with fast-moving research and new papers coming out regularly, you might have a hard time keeping up with just a textbook, unless you are studying really basic stuff.

 

[ahsanxr]

I was wondering the same thing because lately I feel like I haven't been getting a lot out of my lectures. I think the main reason for that is that I haven't been reading ahead. The few times I did, class was a much better experience.

In general I think the value of going to lecture depends on how closely/loosely your instructor follows the textbook. If the class is pretty much a repeat of what is said in the textbook, and the problems are assigned from there as well, then there wouldn't really be a lot of value in going to class, other than of course, if you read the book beforehand. Then it would serve as good reinforcement and it might clarify other things you were wondering about when reading it the first time around.

Secondly, I also don't think that it's possible to walk into class, write some stuff on your notebook for 40-50 minutes and then walk out having mastered the concepts. If you really want to understand the material you're going to have to read the textbook, conceptualize the ideas and build an intuition, ask yourself questions, ponder over them and do lots of problems. Going to lecture probably contributes to that process but not by much.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm a little confused at your first comment about why people won't just leave.

There are a couple thousand colleges in the US. If U of X isn't providing what you want, why not go to U of Y?

 

[PAllen]

I notice that more and more med students in my class have figured out by now that they don't need to attend lectures anymore to get good grades. Attendance can be sparse. Every lecture is recorded and can be watched online anyway. So what's the point of lectures? Almost all material covered is in some textbook or can be found with a quick google search anyway. Are lectures an obsolete artifact within higher education? I mean I guess lectures were useful back in the day before information wasn't as easily copied and disseminated. It's 2011 though, almost every single concept taught in a university can be studied by somebody with a library card and internet access at home. What's the point of going to lecture then? I really only find lectures useful only if they go over problem sets/examples rather than going over concepts. Every concept is already discussed in a textbook.

I actually had a physics professor who enunciated that lectures were an efficient method of transferring the contents of the professor's notebook to the students notebook while completely bypassing the student's mind.

 

[gravenewworld]

Engineering school had huge lecture halls. It would have been easy to skip lectures, unnoticed. I never skipped lectures. I took my lecture notes in cryptic little remarks in the margins of the texts and underlined relevant portions of the text. That way, all my notes were in the context of the way that the lecturers presented the materials in the text. It is naive to think that when a prof draws up his/her exams, (s)he is going to adhere strictly to the text and not favor their own interpretation of the materials. If you are studying in a demanding field, with fast-moving research and new papers coming out regularly, you might have a hard time keeping up with just a textbook, unless you are studying really basic stuff.

Again, you are thinking about a day in age when recorded lectures online were not available. The lectures for the day are posted online, full length, and can be downloaded within 20 or 30 minutes right after the lecture is given. Personally, I think the 'emotional' factor that is involved when a lecture is being delivered is being overrated.

I save vast amounts of time by not going to lecture, watching the lectures in faster speeds/pausing when I need to and by fast forwarding through questions I don't need to listen to or be answered. Also let's not forget, when you are writing down notes while sitting through lecture you are missing things the prof says. Being able to watch the video means you can pause whenever you want to take notes. That way you don't miss anything said. I can get potential test questions that come from a professor's lecture by watching the video.

 

[mathwonk]

it seems at least for the moment, that you are hopelessly lost to good advice. why do you post here if you know better?

mind, i do not give up on you permanently. how old are you? i was about 28 when i learned to attend class.

 

[gravenewworld]

it seems at least for the moment, that you are hopelessly lost to good advice. why do you post here if you know better?

mind, i do not give up on you permanently. how old are you? i was about 28 when i learned to attend class.

28, and how old are you? Were you even around learning in universities with the type of technology that we have available today in the classroom? Probably not.

Information is everywhere, and it is free or easily accessible these days. I'm just wondering how long it is before the internet really revolutionizes higher education.

Digital media transformed the music industry within the span of about 10 years, why can't education be the same? Whether you like it or not, it's starting to happen, and kids these days are learning radically different than you guys who went to school 20 or 30 years ago.
It's only a matter of time before there are lectures posted for every single subject that could be watched by anyone for free. Universities will eventually have to transition to being less involved in education and more research focused.

They should let students learn the material on their own, offer a few problem sessions/Q and A per week (which is much more helpful than a lecture), and supplement with office hours. Professors get to spend more time doing research and kids can save time and money.

Rather than making coursework the cornerstone of a degree, maybe it is time universities should start making research a milestone for graduation. After all, you can't watch a video on work that hasn't been completed yet.

 

[QuarkCharmer]

It's only a matter of time before there are lectures posted for every single subject that could be watched by anyone for free.

Already happened.I think this whole thread is almost pointless. Nobody here has been to his lectures, and likewise, he has not been to any of ours. Each persons experience will differ. Personally, I have had fantastic courses that made the lectures entertaining. I have also had dry courses where attending the lecture no doubt helped in the understanding of the material. I have even had a course where the "lecture" did more harm than good. In the latter course, it not only served me better to, but I had to, out of necessity, learn the material on my own. I still attended every lecture, because you simply don't know when important information will be made available. Perhaps Professor Whatshisname has a specific style of problem that is unique to the course, cannot be found online, is completely non-intuitive, and will be on a test. You can't possibly know.

What else do you have you do? You already scheduled your life around that time right? Why not show up, and if it's a waste, study your notes during the lecture.

 

[hadsed]

There are a couple thousand colleges in the US. If U of X isn't providing what you want, why not go to U of Y?

The problem isn't restricted to U of X, it's the entire higher-level education system.

 

[gravenewworld]

Already happened.


I think this whole thread is almost pointless. Nobody here has been to his lectures, and likewise, he has not been to any of ours. Each persons experience will differ. Personally, I have had fantastic courses that made the lectures entertaining. I have also had dry courses where attending the lecture no doubt helped in the understanding of the material. I have even had a course where the "lecture" did more harm than good. In the latter course, it not only served me better to, but I had to, out of necessity, learn the material on my own. I still attended every lecture, because you simply don't know when important information will be made available. Perhaps Professor Whatshisname has a specific style of problem that is unique to the course, cannot be found online, is completely non-intuitive, and will be on a test. You can't possibly know.

What else do you have you do? You already scheduled your life around that time right? Why not show up, and if it's a waste, study your notes during the lecture.

How about useful things like studying for the quiz in the class right after, getting ahead in the reading for the next day, or, if you are not a morning person, sleeping in so you are not tired later on in the day in order to make it better for you to absorb the material later in the day while studying.


And I do know when the important info will be available---20 minutes after the lecture. I already have the outline of the class notes too. You'd be surprised just how many med students skip class completely almost every single day. And there's no way they're failing, because if that many were, there would be no way the class average on the exams would be as high as they are (88 and 89 for the first two).

 

[Skrew]

I feel it is a waste of time unless the instructor gives specific information in regards to a test/assignment or you have a specific question which the instructor will take time to answer.

I hate the arrogance of some professors who feel compelled to force students to listen to their rambling.

 

[mathwonk]

you are a perfect example of why teachers should not be blamed for the failure of their students. some people just cannot be helped.

 

[gravenewworld]

you are a perfect example of why teachers should not be blamed for the failure of their students. some people just cannot be helped.

Maybe this would be applicable...only if I were failing (which I'm not).

 

[Skrew]

you are a perfect example of why teachers should not be blamed for the failure of their students. some people just cannot be helped.

You believe professors have an ability to convey knowledge better then textbooks, this has not been the case in every single class I have ever taken.

The best classes are ones where the instructor mimics the textbook, the worst were ones when the instructor felt like doing something "differently" instead of following a tried and true method/presentation.

 

[kylem]

You believe professors have an ability to convey knowledge better then textbooks, this has not been the case in every single class I have ever taken.

The best classes are ones where the instructor mimics the textbook, the worst were ones when the instructor felt like doing something "differently" instead of following a tried and true method/presentation.

You want to go to university to have somebody read a book to you?

 

[canadiankid]

I go to all my lectures mainly for two reasons:
A) lack of self motivation to study the material, I'd rather go to those and party on the weekends
B) I find I am very good at getting a feel from the professor as to what they will put on examinations by the amount of time they spend on it, and more importantly the parts that they are enthusiastic about (those concepts are ALWAYS on the tests)

 

[gravenewworld]

I go to all my lectures mainly for two reasons:
A) lack of self motivation to study the material, I'd rather go to those and party on the weekends
B) I find I am very good at getting a feel from the professor as to what they will put on examinations by the amount of time they spend on it, and more importantly the parts that they are enthusiastic about (those concepts are ALWAYS on the tests)

But are your lectures recorded? If not, then I can understand going to lecture. Even if it is recorded, OK, I'll buy A as a reason to still go to lecture. However, you can gauge what a professor will put on exams by watching their videos.

Maybe you guys don't go to universities where they record and post every single lecture yet.

 

[danago]

I have found that many of my lectures follow a textbook almost word-for-word, so the lecture notes/slides are just a diluted version of what can be obtained from the book. In these cases, the only real benefits i get from the lectures is finding out what parts of the textbook will be examinable. If my lecturers are just going to repeat what i can read in a book, i often won't waste my time driving over an hour to the campus when that time could be spent doing something else. I will still watch the lectures online as a means of consolidating what i have already read, but i don't find them necessary.

I have had the occasional lecturer though who presents his own ideas and teaches from his intimate knowledge of the subject (this is very important to me, and it really shows through when people start asking questions). In these cases i am more than happy to attend lectures, and i find it a very pleasantly refreshing experience. I have often reached the point where i will watch MIT OCW lectures rather than my own, because i find the level of teaching to be of a much more superior quality.

I actually have a class (mathematical finance) this semester which i am extremely disappointed in. The lecturer has written a comprehensive set of lecture notes which are quite good, however the lectures consist of (no exaggeration at all) him pretty much re-writing the notes on the blackboard with very minimal commentary (which is hard to understand when his back is turned to the class). I see absolutely no point in attending a lecture like this.

 

[romsofia]

Also, some professors if they see you come to class every time, try hard, and if you happen to slip up on a test will be more lenient on you.

Just a question, is EVERYTHING recorded? What will you do when the professors says something important for the test, but said it after the camera has been turned off?

 

[gravenewworld]

Also, some professors if they see you come to class every time, try hard, and if you happen to slip up on a test will be more lenient on you.

Just a question, is EVERYTHING recorded? What will you do when the professors says something important for the test, but said it after the camera has been turned off?

Everything is recorded. You can even watch the students leave the room. I love watching at faster speeds. You can finish a 60 minute lecture faster, take accurate notes, and not miss anythimg.

 

[romsofia]

Everything is recorded. You can even watch the students leave the room.

In that situation, don't go if you don't like lectures.

Obviously, this will hinder on your ability to get recommendation letters from professors because you won't interact with them much.

 

[gravenewworld]

In that situation, don't go if you don't like lectures.

Obviously, this will hinder on your ability to get recommendation letters from professors because you won't interact with them much.

Meh, I see them enough in lab.

 

[Choppy]

I think I missed the point about ALL lectures being recorded. I was under the assumption that the original thought was about locking yourself in dorm room, reading the textbook, and maybe supplimenting that with a few YouTube videos instead of going to the lectures.

But if the videos are recorded and posted I see that as having a lot of advantages for a student. Not so much the fast-forward (although I can see the merrits), but the ability to rewind and go over anything you may have missed would be great. I wish they had that when I was a student. I'd be a little leary of the quality of the video - particularly if I'm trying to follow something that's written on a black or whiteboard. But it sounds to me like Gravenewworld doesn't have much of an issue with that. So basically you're attending lectures in a virtual manner.

You know what else would be great about that is being able to preview classes that you may want to sign up for next year.

Something else that I've come to learn is that people learn in different ways. Some students will do just fine if given a syllabus and a textbook that follows that and are told to show up for a final exam in four months. I would stop short of calling lecture a "huge waste of time," but for this subset of students, I can certainly understand the lectures are not the optimal way for them to learn.

Part of being an undergraduate student is learning how you learn. That's going to be different for different people. So I'm not going to tell someone to stop something that's working for him or her.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The problem isn't restricted to U of X, it's the entire higher-level education system.

Entire? All 5000 schools? That's nonsense. Does anyone really doubt that MIT is not Harvard is not Reed is not St. Johns is not Wellesley?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Meh, I see them enough in lab.

If you don't mind letters that say "He showed up in my lab but couldn't be bothered to show up for lectures."

Are you pulling down A+'s in the classes you're skipping? If not, there's a line from Bull Durham: "Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob."

 

[Allenman]

Personally I think lectures are an ancient practice that needs to evolve. We get the material taught "at" us for an hour and go home to read a book or the internet that does the same thing, teaching "at" us. For me, I'm a hands on learner. If you teach at me, I will know it for a day and tomorrow it will be gone.

Now if instead, the class was split up into groups to have the students provide the lecture with the guidance of the instructor (maybe with the instructor clarifying things that are obviously misunderstood, rather than wasting time on trivial subjects that everyone already knows about (maybe the book was pretty clear)). In this way, the instructor immediately see's his/her students' weak points. I think there would be a much higher rate of actual learning (opposed to temporary learning) with this sort of teaching strategy. I'm a firm believer that if you can teach the subject, you know it.

We're getting taught "At" from every angle there is, mostly commonly through commercials. I think it's becoming a pre-programmed thing in our minds to simply toss that stuff out the other ear, and with it goes the important stuff that we learned in that same exact way in class.

I think a lot of it has to do with the university I am at though too... Most of my classes have 100+ students. That makes it hard to really involve everyone. Not to mention, a lot of the professors are only teaching classes to fulfill grant requirements for their research. So if you fail, it's not the end of their world.

 

[gravenewworld]

If you don't mind letters that say "He showed up in my lab but couldn't be bothered to show up for lectures."

Are you pulling down A+'s in the classes you're skipping? If not, there's a line from Bull Durham: "Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob."

It's pass fail.

 

[canadiankid]

I wish my lectures will all recorded and online, however some of my teachers don't allow it as they want students to come to class. I would imagine my brand new 500 person lecture theatres for Chemistry and Physics would be quite empty if it was all online, and the class average would drop too. Let's be honest, a majority university students (especially first year) procrastinate and would pick sleeping in and partying over classes any day.

 

[phoenix:\\]

Not really. I always liked the lecture atmosphere and I get to ask questions that may seem confusing to me. You can't really do that and get a decent response whilst looking on a streaming version of the lecture.

 

[doppelganger]

Lecture is sometimes the only way to learn about a particular instructor's quirks. Off the top of my head, I remember a chemistry instructor who stated in a lecture that he considered all other physical sciences to be fields of chemistry. One of the questions on his test was 'Name 12 fields of chemistry'. Without attending his lecture and catching that throwaway remark, it would be very difficult to answer the question for full credit.

 

[clope023]

I think it depends on the lecturer, one of my professors just does nothing but quickly read off his power point slides. The notes are well written and great for review but he doesn't present it in such a way as to catch anything interesting or meaningful in the lectures. Other professors give very rigorous notes that you learn a hell of a lot from the lectures, it can be a hit or miss situation.

 

[deluks917]

Its worth-while I think to see the professors approach to the subject. For example in my complex Analysis class the professor often presents the material in a way that intuitively seems a bit odd to me. However more than once doing homework I've been stuck and thought "how would professor X look at this" and was able to do the problem.

 

[hadsed]

Entire? All 5000 schools? That's nonsense. Does anyone really doubt that MIT is not Harvard is not Reed is not St. Johns is not Wellesley?

Maybe I'm arguing something different than everyone else. I'm saying classes in general suck. As far as I know, MIT, Harvard, Reed and St. John's all have classes in the same general way (lecturer gives a lecture while 10-300 people sit and listen).