- #1
quantumcarl
- 770
- 0
If no human has observed the moon or been able to calculate its existence through studying its physical effects... does the moon exist under the terms and formulations of quantum mechanics? Please be kind!
zekise said:What you are referring to are certain myths pushed by religionists, mystics and other obfuscators who, unlike scientists, have no idea how reality works, who cannot accept that their self is utterly insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and who are beholden to their own subjective emotions and petty rationalizations.
abszero said:Can anything be said to "exist" if you can't, in principle, observe its effects or it directly?
quantumcarl said:As a kind of addendum to my question:
the idea that there is a "potential" for a moon to exist, even without observation or awareness of its existence, seems like it could be part of the quantum way of analyzing existence.
Is the potential for a moon to exist, the potential for humans to observe a moon to exist and other potentials like of no moon existing etc... part of a quantum equation with regard to the "existence" of the moon or matter in general? Remember that matter is simply a configuration of energy, wave function etc...
ZapperZ said:But at some point, there is a "transition" from quantum behavior to the classical behavior that we all know and love. You must make such a distinction or else you will get into the mystical world of mumbo-jumbo.
Treat a classical entity as it should, and treat a quantum entity as it should. But don't mix them up or you'll get absurdities. When you apply a set of rules that were never meant to be applied to that particular situation, you get quackeries.
Zz.
quantumcarl said:If no human has observed the moon or been able to calculate its existence through studying its physical effects... does the moon exist under the terms and formulations of quantum mechanics? Please be kind!
quantumcarl said:What you have written here constitutes a warning. We could heed your warning if we had a definition for "mumbo-jumbo" and "quackeries". A reason why we need to avoid them would come in handy as well... is this a yellow or orange alert with regard to in-coming absurdities?
I have no wish to indulge in the dog-chase-tail-chase-dogma religiousities that so many entrepreners have milked when it comes to quantum physics.
I am simply interested in the objective views of quantum mechanics and how they may apply to awareness. You will please notice I am trepedaciously avoiding the word "consciousness" because it seems this word has been trade-marked, patented and copyrighted by every guru and swami on the planet... and for no good reason other than to sound "universal".
If it is true that quantum theories and the classic, relativity theories are like an oil and water scenario, there is still something emulsifying the two and that is what we are experiencing... at this moment. Surely one system supports the other... or, even more probable, one system gives rise to the other. There must be common elements in both systems that can be or have been observed. Is this true?
Sherlock said:Conjectured objects that have never been observed might exist, but we have no way of knowing for sure. Conjectured events that have never been observed might have happened, but we have no way of knowing for sure. If no human had ever observed the moon, and if there also were no observed events ("physical effects") that would lead to the conjecture that there is a moon orbiting the earth, then we could feel justified in the belief that the Earth has no moon --- and neither quantum theory nor any other physical theory would contradict this view. However, humans have been observing and tracking the moon for millenia, so the belief that it's there even during intervals when no one on Earth happens to be observing it seems justified --- and neither quantum theory nor any other physical theory contradicts this belief.
As far as I know (which isn't that far ... I'm just a student of this stuff), the "terms and formulations" of QM don't deal with moons. Moons and, say, photons are different. The main difference has to do with the scale of compositional and interactional complexity ... I think.
Anyway, there are no unambiguous physical referents for photons other than the symbolic representations and the experimental events which define them.
Do the math symbols on some piece of paper and the materials and instruments in some experimental setup exist when no one is looking at them? Yes ... at least that's the standard working assumption --- which is firmly grounded wrt our collective experience and pertains to any and all objects amenable to our direct sensory perception.
Do the photons that you might expect your experiment to produce exist if your experiment doesn't produce them? No ... at least not in any physical form other than their mathematical representation.
In other words, the, eg., click of the PMT isn't caused by the photon ... the click is the photon.
So ... what is quantum theory? It's a basic algorithm (employing various mathematical models) for predicting the results of quantum experiments. What does it tell us about our world, about existence? It tells us that a certain instrument (or set of instruments) has a certain probability of being in some three-dimensional configuration (amenable to our direct sensory perception) at a certain time wrt a certain experimental preparation.
Does the quantum mechanical algorithm mirror an underlying reality, an underlying quantum world? That's not its purpose. It was designed as, and functions as, an instrumental theory. It's about mathematically organizing and relating the data wrt the materials and instruments which are associated with the data --- and so far the only thing that this tells us about an underly quantum world is that it apparently can't be understood in terms of the persistent images from the world of our sensory perceptual experience. (I personally think that it tells us that nature is fundamentally waves, but, as I mentioned earlier, I don't know very much yet.)
In a letter in the October 2005 PHYSICS TODAY (pp. 15-16), Aage Bohr, Ben R. Mottelson, and Ole Ulfbeck write:
In his Reference Frame column "What's Wrong With This Quantum World?" (PHYSICS TODAY, February 2004, page 10), David Mermin comments on a statement attributed to Niels Bohr by his associate Aage Petersen:
When asked whether the algorithm of quantum mechanics could be considered as somehow mirroring an underlying quantum world, Bohr would answer
"There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description. It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature."[1]
Mermin's column describing different physicist's reactions to the statement touches on issues that remain central to the understanding of quantum mechanics.
Although "quantum world" was not part of Bohr's terminology, we can imagine that he might have responded as indicated to the question posed. We see the statement in relation to his basic view that the algorithm of quantum mechanics is a purely symbolic formalism accounting for observations that are obtained under specified conditions. That view is illustrated by his advocacy that the word "phenomenon" be used exclusively to refer to "an observation obtained under specified circumstances, including an account of the whole experimental arrangement. In such a terminology, the observational problem is free of any special intricacy, since, in actual experiments, all observations are expressed by unambiguous statements referring, for instance, to the registration of the point at which an electron arrives at a photographic plate."[2]
Interpreted in this manner, the dismissal of a quantum world leaves the particle as an object capable of directly producing the basic event of observation, such as the registration of an electron arriving at a photographic plate or a click produced in a counter. As is evident in the conflicting reactions that Mermin reports, the issue of which world these objects belong to remains controversial.
Mermin asks, What's wrong with this quantum world? Our answer is that the rejection of it in the form described does not go far enough. As we have recently argued,[3] the perceived need to explain the click as being caused by a particle is a remnant from classical imagery, which has obscured the full implications of fortuitousness and thereby the principle underlying quantum mechanics. Thus all experimental evidence is consistent with a complete break with causality in that the click comes without any cause, as a genuinely fortuitous event. The event is recognized as a macroscopic discontinuity in the counter. Thus genuine fortuitousness unavoidably eliminates the particles. Although fortuitousness has been a central innovation of quantum physics, a complete break with causality was beyond the horizon of the pioneers of quantum mechanics. Indeed, if there were no particles producing the clicks, what would the theory be all about?
Perhaps surprisingly, the very notion of genuine fortuitousness is powerful in its implications. With particles excluded, only geometry is left on the stage, and the symmetry of spacetime itself, through its representations, provides the mathematical formalism of quantum mechanics. Once that point is recognized, quantum mechanics emerges from the principle of genuine fortuitousness combined with the embodiment of spacetime symmetry, without any reference to degrees of freedom of particles or fields. The theory, exclusively concerned with probability distributions of genuinely fortuitous clicks, thus differs from previous physical theories in that it does not deal with objects to be measured -- which eliminates the issue of a quantum world.
References
1. A Petersen, Bull. At. Sci. 19, 8 (1963).
2. N. Bohr, Essays 1933-1957 on Atomic Physics and Human Knowledge, Ox Bow Press, Woodbridge, CT (1987), p. 64.
3. A. Bohr, B.R. Mottelson, O. Ulfbeck, Foundations of Physics 34(3), 405 (2004).
quantumcarl said:I admit my question raises a potential for esoteric "quackery" and I apologise for this if it is deemed an oppoprium. I have brought it to the quantum physics section because of the idea of location-nonlocality that has been observed on the extreme sub-atomic level and because it has been postulated that the observation of activity at this level changes the activity in question.
These observations, hypothetically, appear to suggest that awareness and observation had or have a fundamental role in the behaviour of energy/matter.
I see here that Sherlock and ZapperZ are referring to scale and how congruence of results is inconsistent as observations traverse the vast differences of scale. And, as a layman, I can only accept this as the stumbling block to finding a unifyer between Quantum and Relative theories.
However, again, as a layman, let me offer another example that may help in this regard and suggest that applying fractal geometry or fractal theory to bridge the gap between a sub-atomic quantum reality and the classic, relative macroscopic reality we all "know and love".
At any rate, please let me thank you for the cool posts to date!
Schrodinger's Dog said:Are you guys checking out the Skepticism and debunking : Heim theory thread? A step in the right direction perhaps? I'd asy ask Niel armstrong if the moon exists personally; oh no wait a minute we nver actually went there it was all a cold war propoganda excersise.
Seriously though I think the gravitational evidence alone is compelling. I don't wake up every morning and wonder if the sun exists because the warmth from the light on my face is concrete enough under my criteria, OK it may not be scientifically concrete but if I only believed things that were concrete, I'd believe very little. I don't need QM or Relativity to prove or disprove the existence of the sun or the moon, or the planets etc,etc. Frankly I have better things to do with my time than prove the obvious. if it turns out I'm wrong and the sun and moon don't exist then mah ignorance is bliss.
QM relativity are simply a matter of scale on a small scale the quantum effects overcome the relativistic effects and on a macro scale the contrary is true. Working out why this is the case is simply a matter of understanding why gravity dominates the macro and strong/weak etc the very small. I think it would be interesting if in the Heim theory, the macro world Gravity and Electromagnetism rule and in the micro strong and weak rule. strong increases with distance gravity decreases as does electromagnetism which is now unified as Elecro gravity. Maybe that's all the answers we need?
= Bohr
"There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description.
It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature."
ZapperZ said:Exactly what "observation" are you talking about? And putting a hand-waving statement about a "fundamental role in the behavior of energy/matter" only adds to the ambiguity of whatever it is you're trying to get across.
Zz.
The perception of reality by biosystems is based on different, and in certain respects more effective principles than those utilised by the more formal procedures of science. As a result, what appears as random pattern to the scientific method can be meaningful pattern to a living organism. The existence of this complementary perception of reality makes possible in principle effective use by organisms of the direct interconnections between spatially separated objects shown to exist in the work of J.S. Bell.
Quantum eraser: A proposed photon correlation experiment concerning observation and "delayed choice" in quantum mechanics
Marlan O. Scully and Kai Drühl
Max-Planck Institut für Quantenoptik, D-8046 Garching bei München, West Germany
Institute for Modern Optics, Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131
Received 2 April 1981
We propose and analyze an experiment designed to probe the extent to which information accessible to an observer and the "eraser" of this information affects measured results. The proposed experiment could also be operated in a "delayed-choice" mode.
©1982 The American Physical Society
Amongst its virtues, quantum mechanics is pre-occupied with what goes on in the laboratory and the notion of observer is based on the actions of real physicists as they prepare states and then perform tests on them. the problem arises because physicists are themselves emergent phenomena. This has led to an unsatisfactory mixture of classical and quantum concepts resulting in the measurement problem in quantum mechanics. In this paper a more fundamental, mechanistic view of the observer is taken
ZapperZ said:Again, I will point out the idea of a "measurment" in QM that you need to understand FIRST before going into something as in-depth as the quantum eraser. You should expect to be able to deciper something that involved, when you haven't fully understood the idea of linear operators in QM. This is a recipe for disaster based on all my years at looking people trying to tackle QM without understanding the fundamental mathematics.
You may also want to do a search on the tons of postings that I have made regarding "emergent phenomena", especially in my journal entry. As a condensed matter physicist, I've done nothing but work with emergent phenomena, and superconductivity in particular.
So before you buy wholesale of the stuff you're cutting and pasting, be VERY aware that these concepts in physics have underlying mathematical definition, and that you MAY be understanding the stuff you're endorsing differently than the way they are being meant! Do not use the pedestrian definition of these words and phrases and think you've understood what they are. Would you buy the spiel if I tell you that fractional quantum hall effect is an "emergent phenomenon"? Would you be able to explain why it is so?
Zz.
zapperZ said:Would you buy the spiel if I tell you that fractional quantum hall effect is an "emergent phenomenon"? Would you be able to explain why it is so?
Anderson said:Superfluidity, like the fractional quantum Hall effect, is an emergent phenomenon (or, in other words {editor}) a low-energy collective effect of huge numbers of particles that cannot be deduced from the microscopic equations of motion in a rigorous way and that disappears completely when the system is taken apart. (Anderson, 1972).
I'm just a layman, and a casual student of QM. ZapperZ is a working physicist -- I think he's currently at Argonne National Laboratory. Neils Bohr was one of the original developers of quantum theory.quantumcarl said:I admit my question raises a potential for esoteric "quackery" and I apologise for this if it is deemed an oppoprium. I have brought it to the quantum physics section because of the idea of location-nonlocality that has been observed on the extreme sub-atomic level and because it has been postulated that the observation of activity at this level changes the activity in question.
These observations, hypothetically, appear to suggest that awareness and observation had or have a fundamental role in the behaviour of energy/matter.
I see here that Sherlock and ZapperZ are referring to scale and how congruence of results is inconsistent as observations traverse the vast differences of scale.
The physical fact that the experimental preparations and the math have the specific forms that they do has of course something to do with the conscious decisions that went into their construction. But those conscious decisions were preceded by sensory apprehensions of the physical world which didn't just pop into existence because we wanted or willed them to be there. The physical facts are what they are -- and to the extent that all people with normal (and sober) sensory capabilities see the same physical facts, then they're considered to be objective (not just subjective, ie., not just in your or my imaginings) and part of our physical world.quantumcarl said:I am simply exploring supportive and non-supportive objective analyses with regard to awareness and the extent to which it plays a role in determining the constructs of nature. That's why part of the question involves whether or not the power of awareness is fundamental to the existence of matter.
quantumcarl said:I don't "endorse" any of the material I have copied and pasted or linked here. I am supplying, as requested, what I perceive to be examples of what I'm asking with regard to the function of awareness as concerned with matter and the nature of nature.
Here's what I dug up... mind you... I haven't done the hands on work or the calculations and measurments as you have recommended ... so I still don't buy any of the speil or the wholesale goods until I grow them and handle them myself (as per your suggestion)!
ZapperZ said:But at some point, there is a "transition" from quantum behavior to the classical behavior that we all know and love. You must make such a distinction or else you will get into the mystical world of mumbo-jumbo.
Treat a classical entity as it should, and treat a quantum entity as it should. But don't mix them up or you'll get absurdities. When you apply a set of rules that were never meant to be applied to that particular situation, you get quackeries.
Zz.
vanesch said:As far as I know, the above situation has never been found (that there is a clear prediction of a macroscopic behaviour from elementary laws, and that observation is in contradiction with it).
ZapperZ said:Again, as I've mentioned before, the main issue here isn't to cite "proofs" that reductionism works or don't. My main concern to to make sure that people are aware that there is a very large school of thought that many are not aware of that disagrees with such a view, and this school of thought happens to be the largest sector of practicing physicists.
Locrian said:In a way there is - there are lots of examples where people have thought they derived macroscopic behaviour from elementary laws only to find themselves wrong.
vanesch said:We already had this discussion, and it sounds to me as quite shocking (although I believe what you say).
However, what exactly does this crowd think ? Do they think that, "yes, individual systems follow exactly the microscopic laws in all situations, but macroscopic systems just follow different laws" (1), or do they think "the microscopic laws derived from elementary interactions are probably (good) approximations to the true laws of nature, but who show other aspects to emerge when many-particle systems are involved, which do NOT follow from the APPROXIMATIVE laws of individual interactions" (2) ?
Although I can have some sympathy for (2) - though if true, it makes finding the "true laws of nature" a quite hopeless business - I tried to outline why I think that (1) is self-contradictory, in that from the microscopic laws FOLLOWS the existence of a prediction for the macroscopic behaviour, so this is OR in agreement, or in disagreement with what really happens. In the second case, the microscopic laws CANNOT be exact, and in the first case, well, we are back to reductionism all right so there are no "different laws for macroscopic systems" after all.
To give a caricatural example: the microscopic laws cannot say that each individual atom of the apple will go to the left, while the apple will go to right (through some "emergent macroscopic law") without there being a CLASH between the microscopic laws and the macroscopic law.
vanesch said:Yes, but usually this is by making a lot of approximations and extra hypothesis. The true holistic (anti-reductionist) approach is that EVEN IF YOU WERE TO USE THE EXACT MICROSCOPIC LAWS OF NATURE without any approximation, you would not be able to derive certain macroscopically observed phenomena. I think that that claim is self-contradictory, in that if the microscopic laws are exact (meaning, the DETERMINE how the individual constituents will behave), then this RESULTS automatically in the existence of a prediction of the behaviour of the overall macroscopic system in said situation, and can as such NOT be different, as dictated by a "macroscopic law".
For instance, if we have conservation of momentum at microscopic scale, then we can DERIVE conservation of momentum at macroscopic scale, exactly. Now, if there is going to be a macroscopic law that says that in this particular macroscopic case, there is NOT going to be conservation of momentum, there is a CLASH. But you cannot have that microscopic conservation of momentum is an EXACT microscopic law, and that there is an "emergent property" which violates conservation of momentum at macroscopic scale, happily existing together. If violation of conservation of momentum is observed, this only means that conservation of momentum is microscopically not EXACT (although in individual collisions, say, it may be such a good approximation that we cannot observe any deviation from it).
Now, in the case of conservation of momentum, the mathematically precise prediction from microscopic laws is easy to do. For most other properties, it is an almost intractable mathematical problem in practice, but that doesn't mean that the prediction (the exact mathematical prediction) does not EXIST (in the Platonic sense).
ZapperZ said:Write down all you know about the elementary interactions. Now, using just those and adding more and more complexities, there is nothing in what you are doing that will produce the emergent behavior.
ZapperZ said:No, that is not what is meant by emergent behavior. It has nothing to do with the violation of any physical concept. It is the SHORTCOMMING of the model at the microscopic scale. Your elementary description is INSUFFICIENT to produce the large scale order. It has nothing to do with conservation laws being violated.
Look at the tight-binding band structure. I could easily only consider the nearest-neighbor interactions and get a bunch of characteristics that agree with experimental measurement. But I also have a few shortcoming that can't be reconcilled with experiments. So then I include the next-nearest neighbor interactions. That agrees more, but I can still find something not quite right. I then add MORE interactions.
In none of these are there any question about conservation laws not working. It is the shortcoming of the MODEL.
Zz.
vanesch said:But this is what I mean. Take an experiment which explicitly tests for some emergent behaviour (like I tried to do with the boiling water). If the emergent phenomenon takes place, the light goes on, and if not, the light will not go on. Now, take the ENTIRE system, including the experimental apparatus, and consider, within a certain theoretical microscopic framework, the description of this entire system. For instance, make the product hilbert space for each of the individual particles and relevant field modes, as described by quantum theory. In the end, there will be an observable that corresponds to "the light goes on", and the mathematical outcome of that observable exists (even though we have no clue of how to derive that in practice without approximation, given the mindboggling complexity of the mathematical problem at hand).
vanesch said:I agree fully here. But the tight-binding model with nearest-neighbour interactions is already a very "rough" approximation to the exact microscopic laws. So any failure of this approximation to the full problem is of course not, in itself, anything fundamental. The question is: does the solution of the exact microscopic laws, applied to the system at hand, agree with the observed phenomena or not ? And in the case that the answer is no (as you seem to suggest for the fractional quantum hall effect - I don't know anything about it, but I certainly agree with you that this should be of utmost importance!), it would mean only, to me, that the microscopic laws we thought of being exact, weren't, after all.