Does the set theory prove that there is no God?

[Jimmy Snyder]

One of the axioms of the axiomatic set theory is that there are no universal sets. However, God is omnipresent, so he would have to be this universal set.

I'm not sure on my feet in a philosophical discussion. But being omnipresent is not the same thing as being a universal set. Can you make your question more precise?

I'm not sure the various omni's used to define G-d are meaningful. To say that something is 'everything' goes against the etymology of the word 'define'. It brings me to mind of a high-school dropout looking for that first job:

HR: What can you do?
Kid: I can do anything.
HR: Right now we're not looking to hire a person that can do 'anything'. We need a person that can do 'something'.
Kid: I can do something.
HR: What can you do?
... ad infinitum.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

Both God and universe are constructions of mind, which are not objectively related. There is no objective existence definable for them.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

 

[heusdens]

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

An objective relation means:
The apple I can see and smell and touch is a separate reality, different and outside and apart of me. I am something different then the apple.
The apple is an object to me, and I am an object to the apple.
Me and the apple are objectively related.

Both God (before creation of the world, he was the sole and unique being) and the whole universe, don't have objects strictly outside of themselves, so they are not objectively related.
They can only be known subjectively.

 

[mubashirmansoor]

@GUILLE

Problem is though is that everything that is based on an argument of a God is said in the words of people. The thing is, when you say "they say you will go to hell", how are "they" to know what God does?

Whos to really say God gave us free will? Just because some person said so doesn't really make it so. Its like trying to explain an experiments results without you ever having done the experiment (nor anyone else ever having done it). Does god know the future? Who says he does? How do you know they have any evidence that he does?

The real problem comes from the fact that your trying to in a scientific sense, contradict someone elses data from an experiment that they never really did.


Its like some people who go "oh there was a big bang! it must mean there's a God!" or "hey, people can evolve, this means there's no God!". Theres various leaps of logic people tend to make way too often that turn this whole science vs. religion thing into a big ugly mess of crap. The people who said Seasons must be God's will at work were just as wrong as the people who now say darvin proved there is no God.

Excellent... These words of yours have to be written on gold :)

 

[Wizardsblade]

Pengwuino,

What if the agrument is that God him self has said so? i.e. if God says "You are all guilty of sin and the punishment of sin is hell." Or reather, is your argument still true if:
1) God says it.
2) Someone repeats what God says.
3) Someone says "God says..".
4) Someone presumes what God wants.

And I am sure there could be many more levels inbetween thoughs 4 and beyond, but I see no need to try to add them all. One things very evident from this and other threads though; God will never be proven or disproven (at least as we exist now.

 

[JonF]

One of the axioms of the axiomatic set theory is that there are no universal sets. However, God is omnipresent, so he would have to be this universal set. Thus, God would immediately lead to a contradiction within the set theory. Does this prove that there is no God?

Since when is God a set or an quadrant system?

 

[mosassam]

One things very evident from this and other threads though; God will never be proven or disproven (at least as we exist now.

In the same way a thought or a feeling will never be proven or disproven. But hold on a sec...

 

[JonF]

In the same way a thought or a feeling will never be proven or disproven. But hold on a sec...

or in the way a non-falsifiable/verifiable claim can be proven...

Have you tried to prove that you are sane without appealing to your sanity? Have you tried proving that Bigfoot DNE without being everywhere at once?

 

[Langbein]

I tried to read trough the tread, but I can not see that you define anywhere abouve what a God is. Neither I can see that you define what the word exist does mean.

How can it be possible to conclude positive or negative if something unknown has an uknown condition ?

 

[Philocrat]

One of the axioms of the axiomatic set theory is that there are no universal sets. However, God is omnipresent, so he would have to be this universal set. Thus, God would immediately lead to a contradiction within the set theory. Does this prove that there is no God?

This is not exactly true. Contradiction would exist if there were no 'Continuous Set' (that is, a set that eats up all contradictions), and God were not the owner of this set. Since Continuous set exists and God owns it, there is no contradiction. Just think about it for a moment.

 

[Quatl]

One of the axioms of the axiomatic set theory is that there are no universal sets. However, God is omnipresent, so he would have to be this universal set. Thus, God would immediately lead to a contradiction within the set theory. Does this prove that there is no God?

Short answer no. Here's a few thoughts on the matter though:

God being omnipresent usually means that God is witness, aware, part of to all things. So the Set God = {All beings who are aware of all things} or {... occupy all positions} or possibly {...are a component of all things} (assume there is one member of this set, if you like, i think this set is empty personally; but that's another topic) Anyway sets can contain other sets, so set Apple = {material components of apple, God} this would imply that God is a member of all sets, rather than a set of all things.

If you are saying that all things are "part of God" then there is still no problem as God is Itself not part of this set. So set God = {everything but God}. (note that saying that all things are part of God is very different than saying that God is part of everything)

Or you could redefine God=Universe (in the set theory sense, that is everything that can be in a particular set or not) which is still not a violation of set theory. In fact set theory usually requires that you define a "Universe" prior to getting on with your set defining.

Alternatively you could interpret the axiom of set theory you mentioned as stating that: "Set theory only applies to constructions that do not include a universal set"

The answer though really is that the concept of God is intentionally constructed in such a way as to make it impervious to logic. God is generally defined more or less as that being to which rules don't apply.

 

[chronon]

Even in set theory not everything is a set. Try Googling "proper class"

 

[CRGreathouse]

One of the axioms of the axiomatic set theory is that there are no universal sets. However, God is omnipresent, so he would have to be this universal set. Thus, God would immediately lead to a contradiction within the set theory. Does this prove that there is no God?

I interpret omnipresent differently, but using your definition as a base, couldn't omnipresent mean that God is the class of all sets? This is allowed in most axiomatic theories. What part of omnipresent requires it to be a set and not a class?

 

[Barbarosa]

Both God and universe are constructions of mind, which are not objectively related. There is no objective existence definable for them.

definable in this dimension

 

[Cuong Vu]

Perhaps only through subjectivity could one come near to God. It is faith. Objectifying the definition of God seems to be a dilemma of modern philosophy. There are a lot of questions upon Cosmology which we shall try to answer, and shall never be able to answer at all. We cannot even use any imperical method to prove "Love".

It seems that the so-called Logic which humans all try to embalm may somedays expand as we breakthrough the universe by our technology. But what could say about God existence is "unknown". It is a sort of similar to that the thought of "x" does not exist does not mean the existence of "x" has no evidence.