Can E.S.P be scientifically proven? Join the challenge and find out!

[Intuitive]

Putting E.S.P to the test by Physicist.

I think we need a PF to choose Items of their choice and have all the people in the forum try to perceive the items by E.S.P (Extra Sensory Perception) just to see the ratio of results and post the end results when the item is perceived by a User, To make it a little more rigorous and eliminate a coincidence, have a PF choose 3 Items instead of 1, if the user can guess all 3 items with a single post there might be some substance and maybe Science will recognize there is more to E.S.P than what was currently thought.

I had involuntary E.S.P up to the age of 12 and it dissappeared in my teens and become a very rare occasion in my Adult hood, in Adult hood it only appears involuntarily if my life is some how in jeopardy or will have some crisis, Like my car breaking down, It has saved my life at least a dozon times, I can't call upon it, It just happens.

I bet all the Physicists in the forum will be lurking around the E.S.P Challenge, Waiting in a deep dark corner tearing at their finger nails on this one.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We did this once a couple of years ago and no one got it. We could try again. So that I know this is on the level, I will have to be the one to pick something. I will also forward a pic of the object to Greg who can verify the results later if there are any objections. [Provided of course that he has no objections to this for legal reasons, etc].

I'll post a pic of the black bag containing the secret object; probably tomorrow. We will allow one guess per person. The guesses much be clearly identified objects such as a knife, an oil can, a coffee can, a metal chain, an occular plethysmograph, etc. Descriptive answers such as "a round, green object", don't count.

 

[Intuitive]

We did this once a couple of years ago and no one got it. We could try again. So that I know this is on the level, I will have to be the one to pick something. I will also forward a pic of the object to Greg who can verify the results later if there are any objections. [Provided of course that he has no objections to this for legal reasons, etc].

I'll post a pic of the black bag containing the secret object; probably tomorrow. We will allow one guess per person. The guesses much be clearly identified objects such as a knife, an oil can, a coffee can, a metal chain, an occular plethysmograph, etc. Descriptive answers such as "a round, green object", don't count.

To control it better.

A Spray painted Black Cardboard Box. (Flat Black)
A Spray painted White Cardboard Box. (Flat White)
A Spray painted Grey Cardboard Box. (Primer Grey)

Each Box containing an Item.

Do this on an ocassion you might get lucky to discover a perceptive person, but do this challenge on more than just an occasion will land you a perceptive person eventually.

I know they exist, Not by faith but by experience. They are few and the search is hard.

I also used to know a Girl friend who had it worst than me after a gun blow to the head caused her to begin seeing and knowing your thoughts, It was spooky even when I was use to it as a child. It may be awhile before you get spooked, But keep trying and it will happen and someone will change your life forever.

 

[PIT2]

Or how about a 6 digit number written on a piece of paper, so we can actually calculate the probability of correctly guessing it >> 1 in a million. If not then Ivans simple black bag will do (u could throw a 6digit number in just for the hell of it).

People with ouijaboards should also give it a try and ask the ghost to give them the number. After all it is often said by those using ouijaboards that it provides knowlegde about things they had no knowledge about.

 

[munky99999]

I love the claims of ESP.

Usually they claim to be perfect. Then later on it gets weak.

So if your tested. and you don't get perfect. Its just because the ESP is weak.

Wanna prove to me that ESP exists. Win me $1million

http://randi.org/"

Many people apply and get tested. yet 100% all fail. Nobody has claimed the $. and one thing. if they did. you'd definitely hear about it from LOADS and LOADS of people.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We'll do this but it may be another day or two before I can get something posted. Today was nuts and tomorrow looks worse. Edit: I'll lock or rename this thread and link to a sticky.

How many people have actually been tested by Randi? How many have applied?

 

[munky99999]

How many people have actually been tested by Randi? How many have applied?

http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#1.3"

 

[Ivan Seeking]

1.4. How many people have passed the preliminary test?

None. Most applicants never agree to a proper test protocol, so most are never tested.

What were their objections?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think Randi owes this guy a millions bucks; assuming of course that the whole thing passes peer review by the science community.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4090155.stm

I would also like to know what Mr. Randi has to say about this. Perhaps as a person truly interested in science, Randi should contact this gentleman and talk with his doctors.

 

[Orefa]

What were their objections?

What I gathered from a TV piece on the challenge is that many candidates are not able to agree on what constitutes success or failure of their own claim to the paranormal. The rules are here: http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html"

1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result. This is the primary and most important of these rules.

It's not so complicated, you just need to clearly state what qualifies as success and what qualifies as failure of your own claim, but most candidates are not able to even do this much. They commonly talk and talk about theory of this and that which is really not relevant to the challenge. And then the few applicants who did agree to the protocol and went through preliminary testing failed to demonstrate anything at all so they were not further considered for the official test.

 

[munky99999]

I think Randi owes this guy a millions bucks; assuming of course that the whole thing passes peer review by the science community.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4090155.stm

I would also like to know what Mr. Randi has to say about this. Perhaps as a person truly interested in science, Randi should contact this gentleman and talk with his doctors.

well I am wondering.

But when the patient was asked to identify angry or happy human faces, he did so with an accuracy of 59% - significantly higher than would be expected by chance.

angry or happy. basically a 50% chance at a guess. if he has an accuracy of 59% that's is ohhhhhhhhhhh says 9% above average. But wait i remember probabilities. Take a coin. If you tossed in 1 trillion times. the chances would end up being 50%. but if you only do it 100 times. there is a good chance u can have 60% heads and 40% tails.

which by far can bet is likely what's happening here.

TBH i don't expect him to have any ability. unless it was 90% or better. or if it wasnt so 50% chanced.

Like have him say what face the person is making. and have 10 different possibilities.

Hell if you gave ANY blind man the chance to guess is this person angry or happy. and they simply guess. they could get perfect. they could get the exact same % as this guy.

 

[munky99999]

It's not so complicated

Anyone truly with a paranormal ability would find all this complication a joke. as $1 million american is far worth more then any complicated procedures.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

well I am wondering.



angry or happy. basically a 50% chance at a guess. if he has an accuracy of 59% that's is ohhhhhhhhhhh says 9% above average. But wait i remember probabilities. Take a coin. If you tossed in 1 trillion times. the chances would end up being 50%. but if you only do it 100 times. there is a good chance u can have 60% heads and 40% tails.

which by far can bet is likely what's happening here.

TBH i don't expect him to have any ability. unless it was 90% or better. or if it wasnt so 50% chanced.

Like have him say what face the person is making. and have 10 different possibilities.

Hell if you gave ANY blind man the chance to guess is this person angry or happy. and they simply guess. they could get perfect. they could get the exact same % as this guy.

Yes I know, this shouldn't count even if it passes peer review. I understand.

 

[munky99999]

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1732642.html?menu="

he deserves the $1 million or a good beating.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm sorry, what does that have to do with the topic?

 

[munky99999]

I'm sorry, what does that have to do with the topic?

a joke... you see you go HA and one more HA. to make HAHA. Which is a laugh.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay, I just wasn't sure. I'm laughing in my mind now.

 

[Intuitive]

A Spray painted Black Cardboard Box. (Flat Black)
A Spray painted White Cardboard Box. (Flat White)
A Spray painted Grey Cardboard Box. (Primer Grey)

Item in each Box.

The Neutral Box colors are soothing to the Mind, The Boxes will hide any formation of shape and substance or weight.

If not 3 boxes then use a Cardboard Box. (Flat Black), We can call it the Black Box Test, If you will.

Doing this on a daily basis with lots of people will reveal a perceptive person when one joins this forum and spot the test. Never give up, in my life I have only met two other people that could do E.S.P, in my 38 years of life living in a town of 56,000 people.

There must be lots of participants for the test because E.S.P is rare not common.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh wow, you want to make me work here?

Just out of curiosity, why the paint? This is intended to assist those viewing the pic of the boxes?

My black bag was really just symbolic of the classic black box of physics, since I didn't have a black box.

We had one young member who was trying to imagine the black bag and where it sat, so he asked where I was. I told him that I was in a giant warehouse filled with thousands of large black bags. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Sorry, sometimes I crack myself up. Anyway, I told him I was kidding after he freaked out.

 

[Intuitive]

Oh wow, you want to make me work here?

Just out of curiosity, why the paint? This is intended to assist those viewing the pic of the boxes?

My black bag was really just symbolic of the classic black box of physics, since I didn't have a black box.

We had one young member who was trying to imagine the black bag and where it sat, so he asked where I was. I told him that I was in a giant warehouse filled with thousands of large black bags. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Sorry, sometimes I crack myself up. Anyway, I told him I was kidding after he freaked out.

The Neutral Box Colors are Target Colors to pick your Brain with.
The Colors will help concentration on a Specific Box while picking your Noodle, Having three Boxes eliminates coincidents and one might guess two of the Boxes while not the third, The three Neutral Colored Boxes will also give you an idea if there is a Pattern with each Box if for some reason the item only in the Grey box is beeing seen, but not the White or Black Box and Visa Versa.

But will it be the Mysterious Black Box, Only the Shadow knows.

0 out of 3 Boxes guessed = No E.S.P :yuck:
1 out of 3 Boxes guessed = A lucky guess or maybe very low E.S.P
2 out of 3 Boxes guessed = Wow, Your Good!
3 out of 3 Boxes guessed = No freaking way!

Also, I want all you people to try something, Don't laugh yet, When Ivan sets up this test and everything is ready I want you to try something, Take a large heavy object and balance it on top of your head, The object must deliver some pressure to the Cranium then try and guess what is in Ivans Box or Boxes, The Item on Your Head must be Heavy but don't concentrate on the heavy object, Just day dream off on Ivan's Box or Boxes, Try to watch Ivan putting the Item in the Box before He closes it so you can see the Item in Your day dream.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I want to think about this a little more.

While trying to picture me, will people be thinking of a little alien guy walking around my office? Doesn't that throw a wrench in the gears?

 

[Intuitive]

Some how the Heavy object at that point causes the Brain functions to merge together by creating some sort of Short Circuit between unknown pathways in the Brain, Sometimes a blow to the head at that point can cause a person to see the unkown present and future occurances.

My first occurance as a small kid was when I was carrying a 4' x 8' piece of plywood and balancing it upon my head, At that age it was very heavy upon my head, That's when I saw a girlfriend get raped by a neighbor hood kid in my day dream only to discover it was occurring 3 blocks away in real time.

The other two people I know also had these kinds of E.S.P after blows to the head at that point.

It's kind of messed up that E.S.P could exist only because of an injury to a certain part of the brain that causes certain untangled brain functions to entangle by chance.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay, I shouldn't have asked.

Work has been crazy so I'll need a little more time to think this through, but in the mean time, let's stay away from the theories; das ist verboten.

I'll try to have something this weekend.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, I have been trying to think of something easy. What you suggest is too much to do on an ongoing basis and far too difficult to judge.

The only thing that comes to mind is to use lottery numbers. We could even track a real lottery as an ongoing source of numbers. We would also know the odds. Beyond that, real objects are good for a time or two, but beyond that it becomes impractical.

Comments?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

IF and I do say a big if, ESP in any form exists it is likely something you can't just switch on and off in most cases, it is IF it exists a freak mutation with little evloutionary viability in a population, thus it is very rare, that said, you can't do valid scientific tests over the internet, results nul or positive are subject to too many unscientific qualities, it is a non starter whether it produces a positive, or most likely a negative. Leave the ESP tests to the experts I say. Sorry to rain on your parade

I read something interesting in the Guiness book of records in a ah what's it called something like Zimmer test, you know wavey line, star etc test. A guy once averaged under scientific conditions
in the region of 56/60 correct guesses on 60 tests. It actually lead scientists to introduce large enough numbers to the probability of the outcomes of chance, in other words to re-evaluate P math at the time to account for the chances of doing this by luck(a bit before the google and googleplex I think) It has never been repeated thus it isn't scientific, but I found it interesting nonetheless: simply because I suspect he was a very clever man who fooled the scientific conditions somehow, or that he may of been psychic, I'll leave you to decide which

I later saw a very clever psychological magician do the same sort of thing but with 100% accuracy. Not under scientific conditions obviously, but simply by suggestion and observing body language; it's an intriguing area of research.

 

[The Second Solipsist]

I think Randi owes this guy a millions bucks; assuming of course that the whole thing passes peer review by the science community.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4090155.stm

I would also like to know what Mr. Randi has to say about this. Perhaps as a person truly interested in science, Randi should contact this gentleman and talk with his doctors.

There's nothing supernatural about this phenomenon. It is (or is related to) "blindsight". The subject, "patient X", has damage to his visual cortex, but not his eyes. In other words, his eyes work fine, but the area of the brain responsible for processing the visual input isn't working. You'll notice that the news isn't presented as anything unusual, just interesting. It means that some emotional processing of visual images is done in the amygdala, without passing through the visual cortex first.

The work appears to have undergone peer review already - the article says the work was accepted for publication in Nature Neuroscience. Since they refer to the accuracy of 59% being "significantly higher than would be expected by chance", they seem to have done enough trials to put this on firm statistical footing.

Also, regarding the ESP test: I suggest that a list of several (~20-40?) distinct potential items be posted, and the items in the boxes drawn randomly from this list. It would even be nice to post good pictures of each of the items, since some people might think that helps their ESP. This way you avoid any ambiguity about item descriptions, and you can easily calculate the probabilities.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There's nothing supernatural about this phenomenon. It is (or is related to) "blindsight". The subject, "patient X", has damage to his visual cortex, but not his eyes. In other words, his eyes work fine, but the area of the brain responsible for processing the visual input isn't working. You'll notice that the news isn't presented as anything unusual, just interesting. It means that some emotional processing of visual images is done in the amygdala, without passing through the visual cortex first.

Who said anything is supernatural? My point is that it is a newly recognized sense - an extra sense. ESP qualifies under Randi's challenge. Blindsight is merely the name for it.

That is unless you can show me where Randi excludes everything but magic.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Although individuals with damage to V1 are not consciously aware of stimuli presented in their blind field, Larry Weiskrantz and colleagues showed in the early 1970s that if forced to guess about whether a stimulus is present in their blind field, some observers do better than chance. This ability to detect stimuli that the observer is not conscious of can extend to discrimination of the type of stimulus (for example, whether an 'X' or 'O' has been presented in the blind field). This general phenomenon has been dubbed blindsight.

...What is surprising is that activity in these extrastriate areas is apparently insufficient to support visual awareness in the absence of V1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight

 

[zoobyshoe]

I think Randi owes this guy a millions bucks; assuming of course that the whole thing passes peer review by the science community.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4090155.stm

I would also like to know what Mr. Randi has to say about this. Perhaps as a person truly interested in science, Randi should contact this gentleman and talk with his doctors.

Ivan I'm pretty sure the point these doctors are making is non-paranormal:
"Scientists were able to establish that emotion displayed on a human face is registered in an area other than the visual cortex.

The area involved was identified as the right amygdala, an almond-shape structure situated deep within the brain's temporal lobe.

"This discovery is... interesting for behavioural scientists as the right amygdala has been associated with subliminal processing of emotional stimuli in clinically healthy individuals," said Dr Pegna.

"What 'patient X' has assisted us with establishing is that this area undoubtedly processes visual facial signals connected with all types of emotional facial expressions."

There is nothing wrong with the man's eyes, it's important parts of his brain that are damaged. While he can't process images in a way that enables presentation to consciousness I'm pretty sure these doctors are saying the raw signals are still getting to places such as the amygdala where they are screened for basic emotional content like happy/sad.

Hypnagogue has brought the subject of blindsight up a couple times, which is a similar situation where people with a certain kind of brain damage can actually see quite a bit without consciously realizing it. They can avoid walking into things without knowing why and can accurately point to things like trees when asked where they think the nearest tree might be in an environment where they've never been before. Here again their blindness has nothing to do with any eye damage or disease but is neurological. What we oversimplify as "vision" is actually an amazing compendium of different processes that are scattered to a lot of differnt areas of the brain, not just the primary visual processing centers of the occipital lobes.

So, I believe what these doctors feel thay have discovered with this man is that there is an important route from the eyes to the amydala, and from there to consciousness, a route that is independent of the routes from the eyes to the occipital lobes. I am pretty certain they would not characterize this as extra-sensory, i.e. outside the realm of the senses.

 

[The Second Solipsist]

Who said anything is supernatural? My point is that it is a newly recognized sense - an extra sense. ESP qualifies under Randi's challenge. Blindsight is merely the name for it.

That is unless you can show me where Randi excludes everything but magic.

The point I was trying to make, and which zoobyshoe has done a better job of, was that there is no new sense. The patient is using his vision. Because of brain damage, he cannot process most of what his eyes see, and none of it is conscious, but he's still just using light bouncing off of a face and hitting his eyes.

Your Wickipedia entry explains in more technical terms how someone can see without conscious access to vision.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Ivan I'm pretty sure the point these doctors are making is non-paranormal:

And if there were no scientific explanation as of yet would you think that Randi should pay him the million dollars?
I think that we discussed this before. What exactly constitutes paranormal? Perhaps it means "something that can not be explained by science". But what if you believe that everything is explainable by science as I assume Randi believes? Then do you merely need to state that it is possible for something to be explained scientifically and hence it is not paranormal even if you don't have an explanation ready at that moment? If this man with his ability to perceive emotions were to succeed in passing Randi's test (assuming that there is not yet an explanation for his abilities) could Randi or one of his associates have some idea of an explanation and request that tests be run? Perhaps they figure out what the scientific explanation is. Is the man with blindsight now no longer elegible for the money?

 

[SGT]

And if there were no scientific explanation as of yet would you think that Randi should pay him the million dollars?
I think that we discussed this before. What exactly constitutes paranormal? Perhaps it means "something that can not be explained by science". But what if you believe that everything is explainable by science as I assume Randi believes? Then do you merely need to state that it is possible for something to be explained scientifically and hence it is not paranormal even if you don't have an explanation ready at that moment? If this man with his ability to perceive emotions were to succeed in passing Randi's test (assuming that there is not yet an explanation for his abilities) could Randi or one of his associates have some idea of an explanation and request that tests be run? Perhaps they figure out what the scientific explanation is. Is the man with blindsight now no longer elegible for the money?

The notarized rule to be eligible to win the million dollars is that the candidate must demonstrate his/her powers according to a mutually accepted protocol.
The candidate must specifically describe the ability. If it is accepted as eligible for the challenge, the candidate and the JREF must accept a mutually written protocol, where it will be described what will be tested and how and the percentage of hits in a series of trials that are considered a success.
If you propose to demonstrate any ability for which there is a scientific explanation, no test will be realized, but if you are allowed to be tested, there is a tacit acceptation that the ability is paranormal and there is no way the JREF can evade the payment in case of success.

 

[Curious3141]

The BBC article Ivan brought up makes no reference to the paranormal. This is another variation of brain lesions that cause a disconnect between conscious and unconscious perception. This is one example, blindsight is another. Still another is Anton's syndrome, where a subject will be actually blind but claim to be sighted, even confabulating to make up for the deficit.

If the blind guy had an impenetrable blindfold on but could still sense emotions with a statistically significant accuracy, *that's* paranormal and then Randi would owe him a million big ones. As long as visible spectrum photons are able to physically reach his visual organ, it ain't paranormal and doesn't qualify, so it's a strawman argument.

People have weird or unexpected abilities, but they can be explained as variations or extensions of the normal spectrum. A much better example would be the guy who could state with devastating accuracy what piece of classical music was imprinted on a standard unmarked, unlabelled LP record by just inspecting the surface with the naked eye. That person (I forget the name, I believe he was a PhD doctor) was completely forthright in stating that his ability was not paranormal, he merely had a finely developed visual acuity and was able to read the pattern of the grooves on the record and picture the music. Now, that's impressive, but not supernatural.

 

[SGT]

...
People have weird or unexpected abilities, but they can be explained as variations or extensions of the normal spectrum. A much better example would be the guy who could state with devastating accuracy what piece of classical music was imprinted on a standard unmarked, unlabelled LP record by just inspecting the surface with the naked eye. That person (I forget the name, I believe he was a PhD doctor) was completely forthright in stating that his ability was not paranormal, he merely had a finely developed visual acuity and was able to read the pattern of the grooves on the record and picture the music. Now, that's impressive, but not supernatural.

Actually he is an M.D. called Arthur B. Lintgen. See the story here.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And if there were no scientific explanation as of yet would you think that Randi should pay him the million dollars?
I think that we discussed this before. What exactly constitutes paranormal? Perhaps it means "something that can not be explained by science". But what if you believe that everything is explainable by science as I assume Randi believes? Then do you merely need to state that it is possible for something to be explained scientifically and hence it is not paranormal even if you don't have an explanation ready at that moment? If this man with his ability to perceive emotions were to succeed in passing Randi's test (assuming that there is not yet an explanation for his abilities) could Randi or one of his associates have some idea of an explanation and request that tests be run? Perhaps they figure out what the scientific explanation is. Is the man with blindsight now no longer elegible for the money?

The point is not whether or not magic is involved. In fact that is Randi's little word game. By definition, all real things are governed by scientific [natural] laws whether we know them or not. The question is, do mechanisms exist that we don't know about or understand that might be seen as magic? If there is, then Randi owes someone a million bucks. I think this case qualifies. If, on the other hand, the only qualified winner would have to prove the existence of magic, then obviously it's a cheap con game on Randi's part. In that case the challenge should be to prove the impossible.

Keep in mind that Magicians like Randi are masters of misdirection.

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Here are the definitions of paranormal:
Quick definitions (paranormal)

adjective: not in accordance with scientific laws (Example: "What seemed to be paranormal manifestations")
adjective: seemingly outside normal sensory channels
http://www.onelook.com/?w=paranormal&ls=a

So, magic, or not recognized, which does he mean? Does any new scientific discovery that we don't understand qualify? That would be "not in accordance with scientific laws". Does entanglement count? How about Dark Energy? how about the Big Bang; something from nothing?