Isomorphic Groups: Proving Theorem True?

  • Thread starter LagrangeEuler
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In summary: I think ##\mathbb{Z}/8\mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}## has an element of order 8...In summary, two groups are isomorphic if they have the same number of elements and the same number of elements of the same order. However, this statement is false as there are counterexamples such as the groups ##\mathbb{Z}/8\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}## and ##\mathbb{Z}/4\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}/4\mathbb{Z}##. These groups have the same number of
  • #1
LagrangeEuler
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Two groups are isomorphic if they has same number of elements and if they has same number of elements of same order? Is it true? Where can I find the prove of this theorem?
 
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  • #2
I really don't understand your first sentence.
 
  • #3
Sorry Sir. I try to say. If i had to groups with same number of elements ##|G_1|=|G_2|## and groups ##(G_1,\cdot)## and ##(G_2,*)## has the same number of element with the same order are then the groups are isomorphic? Is there such theorem?
 
  • #4
No, there is no such theorem because it is false. I think the two groups ##\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p## and ##(\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p)\rtimes\mathbb{Z}_p## constitute a counterexample for ##p## prime.
 
  • #5
micromass said:
No, there is no such theorem because it is false. I think the two groups ##\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p## and ##(\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p)\rtimes\mathbb{Z}_p## constitute a counterexample for ##p## prime.
Tnx a lot and what are that group. What is ##\mathbb{Z}_p##? And what is difference between
##\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p##
and
##(\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p)\rtimes\mathbb{Z}_p##?
 
  • #6
LagrangeEuler said:
Tnx a lot and what are that group. What is ##\mathbb{Z}_p##? And what is difference between
##\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p##
and
##(\mathbb{Z}_p\times\mathbb{Z}_p)\rtimes\mathbb{Z}_p##?

##\mathbb{Z}_p## (also denoted as the quotient group ##\mathbb{Z}/p\mathbb{Z})## is the set of residue classes modulo ##p##. So for example, ##\mathbb{Z}_5=\{0,1,2,3,4\}##. In the above example, ##\rtimes## denotes the semi direct product, as opposed to ##\times## which is the direct product. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semidirect_product for good explanations of these.

The answer above is not likely to be of help to you, since your question implies that you are a novice in group theory. A more fitting answer for a counterexample is to consider ##\mathbb{Z}/6\mathbb{Z}## and ##S_3##, the group of permutations of ##3## elements. They both have order ##6##, and they certainly are not isomorphic.
 
  • #7
NeoAkaTheOne said:
##\mathbb{Z}_p## (also denoted as the quotient group ##\mathbb{Z}/p\mathbb{Z})## is the set of residue classes modulo ##p##. So for example, ##\mathbb{Z}_5=\{0,1,2,3,4\}##. In the above example, ##\rtimes## denotes the semi direct product, as opposed to ##\times## which is the direct product. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semidirect_product for good explanations of these.

The answer above is not likely to be of help to you, since your question implies that you are a novice in group theory. A more fitting answer for a counterexample is to consider ##\mathbb{Z}/6\mathbb{Z}## and ##S_3##, the group of permutations of ##3## elements. They both have order ##6##, and they certainly are not isomorphic.

I think the OP wants two groups ##G## and ##G^\prime## that have the same order, and such that ##G## and ##G^\prime## have the same number of elements with a given order. For example, ##G## and ##G^\prime## both have the same number of elements of order ##2##.
 
  • #8
micromass said:
I think the OP wants two groups ##G## and ##G^\prime## that have the same order, and such that ##G## and ##G^\prime## have the same number of elements with a given order. For example, ##G## and ##G^\prime## both have the same number of elements of order ##2##.

Yes. Exactly!
 
  • #9
NeoAkaTheOne said:
##\mathbb{Z}_p## (also denoted as the quotient group ##\mathbb{Z}/p\mathbb{Z})## is the set of residue classes modulo ##p##. So for example, ##\mathbb{Z}_5=\{0,1,2,3,4\}##. In the above example, ##\rtimes## denotes the semi direct product, as opposed to ##\times## which is the direct product. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semidirect_product for good explanations of these.

The answer above is not likely to be of help to you, since your question implies that you are a novice in group theory. A more fitting answer for a counterexample is to consider ##\mathbb{Z}/6\mathbb{Z}## and ##S_3##, the group of permutations of ##3## elements. They both have order ##6##, and they certainly are not isomorphic.

Tnx. For this definitions. I will read that.
 
  • #10
LagrangeEuler said:
Yes. Exactly!

Well, it's not true. The simplest possible example involve the group ##\mathbb{Z}_2\times\mathbb{Z}_8## and the modular group. These are groups of order 16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_graph_(algebra )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_group
 
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  • #11
micromass said:
I think the OP wants two groups ##G## and ##G^\prime## that have the same order, and such that ##G## and ##G^\prime## have the same number of elements with a given order. For example, ##G## and ##G^\prime## both have the same number of elements of order ##2##.

Ah, the question was not very eloquently phrased.

To answer the question, mircomass is correct in saying that the smallest example comes with order ##16##. Consider ##\mathbb{Z}/8\mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}\not\simeq\mathbb{Z}/4\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}/4\mathbb{Z}\not\simeq H## where ##H=<a,b>## such that ##|a|=|b|=4##. It's quite clear that these three groups have ##12## elements of order ##4## and ##3## elements of order ##2## (and obviously the identity being the sixteenth). Is this perfect?

More complicated examples can be arrived at by the notion of ##p##-groups, which I imagine OP has not studied yet.
 
  • #12
NeoAkaTheOne said:
Ah, the question was not very eloquently phrased.

To answer the question, mircomass is correct in saying that the smallest example comes with order ##16##. Consider ##\mathbb{Z}/8\mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}\not\simeq\mathbb{Z}/4\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}/4\mathbb{Z}\not\simeq H## where ##H=<a,b>## such that ##|a|=|b|=4##. It's quite clear that these three groups have ##12## elements of order ##4## and ##3## elements of order ##2## (and obviously the identity being the sixteenth). Is this perfect?

More complicated examples can be arrived at by the notion of ##p##-groups, which I imagine OP has not studied yet.

I think ##\mathbb{Z}/8\mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}## has an element of order 8 though.
 
  • #13
micromass said:
I think ##\mathbb{Z}/8\mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}## has an element of order 8 though.

You're correct. Small oversight, but I think I meant ##Q\times \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}## with ##Q## being the quaternion group. Surely that doesn't have an element of order ##8##?
 

1. What is an isomorphic group?

An isomorphic group is a mathematical concept that refers to two groups that have the same structure, even if the elements and operations may be different. In simpler terms, it means that the groups are essentially the same, just expressed differently.

2. How do you prove that two groups are isomorphic?

To prove that two groups are isomorphic, you must show that there is a one-to-one correspondence between the elements of the two groups, and that the group operations are preserved. This can be done by demonstrating a bijective function between the two groups that preserves the group structure.

3. What is the significance of proving the isomorphic theorem?

Proving the isomorphic theorem is important because it allows us to show that seemingly different groups are actually the same. This can help simplify calculations and provide insights into the properties of the groups.

4. Are all groups isomorphic?

No, not all groups are isomorphic. In order for two groups to be isomorphic, they must have the same structure. This means that the order of the elements, the group operations, and the identity element must all be the same.

5. Can the isomorphic theorem be applied to more than two groups?

Yes, the isomorphic theorem can be applied to more than two groups. In fact, it can be used to compare and classify multiple groups at once, by showing that they are all isomorphic to a certain group. This can help organize and understand the properties of various groups.

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