Godel's theorem, Hawking and GUT

In summary: I think that if we were to find a TOE, it would be similar to finding a needle in a haystack. Obviously, the goal of physics is not to find every mathematical statement that's true. So Godel's incompleteness theorem does not apply.I would say that a ToE can exist, but that we are not able to construct a proof. However, this does not mean that a GUT cannot exist- it's just that we haven't found it yet.This is an interesting debate and I'm looking forward to seeing what others have to say!
  • #1
dpa
147
0
Hi all,
:smile:

Stephen Hawking extended the Godel's Theorem to physics and hence expressed that single TOE does not exist.
So, :shy: does that mean that single GUT cannot exist as well? I guess not, in a sense that GUT might not necessarily mean TOE.

I just want opinions.

Sincerely
DPA
 
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  • #2
strange;

I would say that a ToE can exist, but that we are not able to construct a proof
 
  • #3
dpa said:
Stephen Hawking extended the Godel's Theorem to physics.
Can you provide a reference or link for that claim?
 
  • #4
Demystifier said:
Can you provide a reference or link for that claim?

Of course, post number 1 is where that claim was made.
 
  • #5
martinbn said:
Of course, post number 1 is where that claim was made.
Sure, but I want to see what EXACTLY Hawking said in HIS own words. Because in the form dpa expressed it sounds as something said by a crackpot.
 
  • #6
Demystifier said:
Sure, but I want to see what EXACTLY Hawking said in HIS own words. Because in the form dpa expressed it sounds as something said by a crackpot.

Yes, that's why i was joking that the first to make that claim was him.
 
  • #7
check this. I might have got it wrong. Help me.

damtp.cam.ac.uk/events/strings02/dirac/hawking/
 
  • #8
dpa said:
Hi all,
:smile:

Stephen Hawking extended the Godel's Theorem to physics and hence expressed that single TOE does not exist.
So, :shy: does that mean that single GUT cannot exist as well? I guess not, in a sense that GUT might not necessarily mean TOE.

I just want opinions.

Sincerely
DPA

I doubt we're going to find a GUT until we do find a TOE. Is it even humanly possible to generate the energies needed to test a GUT?

Obviously, the goal of physics is not to find every mathematical statement that's true. So Godel's incompleteness theorem does not apply.
 
  • #9
dpa said:
damtp.cam.ac.uk/events/strings02/dirac/hawking/
Yes, that's it. It is nice to see that Hawking is not a crackpot. :smile:
Namely, he does not EXTEND the Godel's theorem, but merely uses it as an analogy illustrating the (certainly not new) idea that the final physical theory of everything might not exist.
 
  • #10
ah sorry
my word was misleading.
 
  • #11
What does a theory of everything even mean?

I recall reading that Lord Kelvin said at the start of the 1900's that the field of physics is done, i.e nearly completed to describe every natural phenomena. He didn't account for the two revolutions that followed, QM and GR.
 

1. What is Godel's theorem and why is it important in science?

Godel's theorem, also known as Godel's incompleteness theorems, is a mathematical proof that states any formal system of logic will always contain statements that cannot be proven or disproven within that system. This is important in science because it shows that there are limits to what can be proven using formal logic, and that there will always be gaps in our understanding of the universe.

2. How does Hawking's work contribute to our understanding of the universe?

The late Stephen Hawking was a renowned physicist who made significant contributions to our understanding of the universe, particularly in the fields of cosmology and black holes. His work helped advance our understanding of the Big Bang theory, the origins of the universe, and the behavior of black holes. He also proposed theories such as the "no-boundary" proposal and the concept of Hawking radiation, which continue to be studied and debated by scientists.

3. What is a Grand Unified Theory (GUT) and why is it important in physics?

A Grand Unified Theory (GUT) is a theoretical framework that aims to unify the fundamental forces of nature, including gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. It is important in physics because it would provide a comprehensive understanding of the fundamental laws of the universe and potentially lead to new discoveries and advancements in technology.

4. What are some challenges in developing a Grand Unified Theory?

One of the major challenges in developing a Grand Unified Theory is the lack of experimental evidence to support the theories. GUTs are still largely theoretical and have not been confirmed by empirical data. Additionally, the complexity of the mathematics involved in GUTs makes it difficult to test and validate these theories.

5. How do Godel's theorem, Hawking's work, and GUTs relate to each other?

Godel's theorem, Hawking's work, and GUTs all deal with fundamental questions about the nature of the universe and the limitations of our understanding. Godel's theorem shows that there are inherent limits to what we can know and prove, Hawking's work expands our understanding of the universe and the laws that govern it, and GUTs aim to provide a unified framework for understanding the fundamental forces of nature. All three concepts are important in shaping our understanding of the universe and the scientific methods we use to study it.

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