Why i don't believe in ghosts as potrayed in popular culture?

[quantumfireball]

If ghosts could be seen then its obvious that they are emitting visible light,and light is

nothing both electromagnetic fields.
which would imply that they are made of physical matter,as everbody knows that electromagnetic

fields couple to accelerating charges.
What is even more ridiculous is that ghost in popular culture are potrayed in clothes as if

clothes have the same kind of after life as the person.
If ghosts exist then they are disembodied conscious enities.
And conciousness is not physical which means it cannot interact with physical matter,unless you

take the materialist point of view.
I am neither a materialist nor a cartesian dualist but i find both point of views equally

compelling.
But one thing I am convinced about is that ghosts if they exist are not visble to the human eye as

they are disembodied conciousness.(assuming that you take the dualist point of view).

 

[waht]

Our minds can play all kinds of tricks on us. And if coupled with beliefs systems, and emotions could really fool people. One common theme in reports of seeing ghosts is that there is a component of fear associated with the event, and occurs in a dark setting.

My hypothesis is that during the caveman times it was a way to prevent the huntsman from venturing into a cave or woods alone to avoid danger.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Not that I necessarily believe in ghosts, but your logic is flawed right from the get-go...

If ghosts could be seen then its obvious that they are emitting visible light

Who's to say they have to emit light? Why wouldn't they be reflecting or refracting existing light?

and light is nothing [but] electromagnetic fields.

That is to say the least a poor definition of light. I'm not sure I see the point of this thread, and you definitely haven't "proven" anything in it...

 

[DaveC426913]

By definition, ghosts are, at best meta-physical. I am fairly certain that people who believe in ghosts aren't going to be stopped by arguments involving EM emissions.


Your post could have been shortened to "The reason I don't believe on ghosts is because I am rational and believe on the laws of physics."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think we need to be a little more specific about what we mean. By ghosts do we mean the souls of the dead, or other exotic notions such as transdimensional entities, or do we mean possibly something that we don't understand, without trying to assign explanations? Or is it the position of everyone here that it is absolutely impossible that there might be something real involvled with some ghost reports - something that we simply don't understand?

First we need some definitions. What specific alleged types of occurances are we talking about?

 

[Evo]

Some people think that the images we see of "ghosts" are some kind of playback, which is why they are simply images and reflect the clothing, but the image does nothing. It is why the image is not of a dead person, but a snapshot of an instance when that person was alive.

I've been wanting to bring up all of the things that modern "paranormal investigators" accept as proof of hauntings like cold temperatures, emf readings, orbs, etc... Just exactly when were any of these things proven to be associated with a verified haunting? They take these things as gospel and even teach courses about these things.

This doesn't mean that I don't believe there isn't something out there we don't understand because, like Ivan, I had something happen that I cannot explain. I was 42 years old when it happened. Ok, I was taking a basket of laundry into my daughter's bedroom, when a white kitten I owned tried to run in through the door with me. My daughter was allergic to cats and would not let them in her room, so when the kitten started to run in, I stuck my foot out to block it. It dodged my foot a few times then hit my ankle as it darted into the room past me and ran straight under her bed. I pushed the door behind me closed with my foot. Dropped the basket of laundry down and went to the bed and got down on my hands and knees so I could grab the kitten.

No kitten.

I searched the entire room, including the closet.

No kitten.

I searched the entire house.

No kitten.

I looked outside, there it was.

Then I remembered the other white kitten that had died 3 months earlier.

I was doing laundry on a bright, sunny day. Not thinking of anything except putting away my daughter's clothes at that moment.

 

[DaveC426913]

No kitten.

I looked outside, there it was.

Creepy. Cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cat_Who_Walks_Through_Walls

 

[Evo]

creepy. Cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/the_cat_who_walks_through_walls

aaarrghh

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The "ghostly encounter" that my wife and I had involved two distinct events and one long-term oddity.

My wife was out of town and I had just gone to bed, when somebody sat on the bed between my legs. At first I thought it was one of our two cats, but I saw that they were both where I thought they were - at the head of the bed. So I looked toward the foot of the bed expecting to see that someone was there. In fact I remember thinking that it might be some kind of maniac who had broken into the apartment. I remember thinking that I was probably in for the fight of my life. But when I looked down, nothing was there! I could still feel it sitting there, but... yep, hmmm, there it is, I can feel it, but I can't see it.

After taking a moment for this all to register, the reality of the situation sank in and I flew out of that bed. I spent most the rest of the night lying on the couch and staring down the hall; trying to figure out what the hell I had just experienced. In the end it was just too strange so I opted not to tell my wife. And even by the next morning, my own mind was trying very hard to dismiss the entire event. The day did seem surreal as I knew that it did happen, but at the same time, it really is amazing how quickly we will try to rationalize something like this. And even stranger is that although I had no doubt that what I experienced was real, later, when I heard other people telling similar stories, I would react as before - oh sure sure sure. Then I would realize that my story would sound just as ridiculous!

But here's the real kicker: Even though I had never told my wife about all of this, when I was gone a few weeks later, she had an almost identical experience. I had just driven for eight hours to my parent’s house. Upon my arrival, I called Tsu to let her know I was there. When she answered the phone, her voice was shaking, she was clearly upset, and she proceeded to tell me what had happened. In her case, she felt it "sit" right next to her.

Only then did I admit to my own experience. So I enjoy a rare luxury. I had a sort of independent confirmation of my own experience by someone who didn't know anything about it.

We each had the one “sitting” experience and that was it.

Allegedly related [in ghostly terms], we also experienced a recurring, inexplicable odor - the intense, sweet smell of flowers. The odor would suddenly fill the room, linger for perhaps a few minutes, and then go away in an instant. We lived in an apartment with a dedicated A/C system with no forced air exchange to the outside. And although it might be possible for a smell for permeate the apartment, say from an apartment below, to me it seemed impossible for the smell dissipate so quickly. For example, if I opened a bottle of perfume and let the smell fill the room, it might take an hour to air the room out again; even with the window open. Also, sometimes the smell was in the living room, and sometimes it was just in the bedroom. This was also seemingly inexplicable given the intensity of the odor.

Obviously I don’t know that the odor was in any way related to the “sitting”, but since smells are often associated with “hauntings”, and since it did seem to defy explanation, we have always tended to link the experiences. We continued to smell the flowers on occasion until we moved a year or so later. It was a unique experience for both of us – nothing like it before or since.

Now, I realize that to a person reading this, it is just another ghost story. And I realize that the immediate assumption is that either I was mistaken, or that I am lying. But it is the gospel truth. I can only say that you enjoy the luxury of doubt that I don’t. I know what happened. It was just as real as any other real experience in life. And it did change my life. I can’t deny what I experienced.

To this day I use my experience to gauge the truth of stories told by others. There are certain emotions that go along with something like this. They are emotions that AFAIK are unique. When I listen to someone describe an alleged inexplicable event, I sometimes detect that same emotion in their voice and on their face. When I hear or see this, it is very difficult to dismiss their story. I don't think anyone can relate to this unless they too have experienced the seemingly inexplicable. I don't think you can fake it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh yes, after a time I finally went to the apartment managers and asked if they were aware of any unusual occurances in the apartemnt complex. I wasn't able to convey the essense of my question without spilling the beans, so I finally admitted that we had some unusual experiences in our apartment. Without hesitation, they informed me that the apartment was haunted. Experiences like ours were somewhat common in the complex. She said that it was the ghost of her mother.

The managers were an older married couple. They invited me in and proceeded to show me an entire library on the paranormal. The wife looked at me and told me not to worry. "Good ghosts smell like flowers, and bad ghosts smell like sh*t", she whispered.

 

[DaveC426913]

... Without hesitation, they informed me that the apartment was haunted. Experiences like ours were somewhat common in the complex. She said that it was the ghost of her mother.

The managers were an older married couple. They invited me in and proceeded to show me an entire library on the paranormal. The wife looked at me and told me not to worry. "Good ghosts smell like flowers, and bad ghosts smell like sh*t", she whispered.

Heh. And now we have a hypothesis about the origins of the mysterious odor ... your apt. managers.

 

[Hanfonius]

I would guess that if you ask one hundred people in the street if they had ever experienced a ghostly encounter, ninetyfive would say they had. Very few of them would talk about an Elizabethan character with his head beneath his arm, or dragging a ball and chain around.
However, they would try to convince you that their story is true - because they believe it to be so.

Many years ago, I dabbled with Ouija boards; perhaps I should say I became addicted as the months wore on. I experienced things that left me in no doubt that 'something' was happening beyond my powers of explanation. Without breaching terms of confidentiality, I was both obliged by law, and frightened off further participation. I know that there is a certain reality there somewhere.

I was frequently asked to 'prove' that 'spirits', the 'after-life', 'ghosts' etc exist. This was impossible, but I could always ask them if they were aware of a 'presence' when they entered into a room where somebody had passed away. Most of us are somehow able to sense a 'presence' in such circumstances - but what is it? Is there something embodied in the walls? I am unable to explain it further.

Thousands of years ago, clay jars were turned on primitive potter's wheels. The turners used their fingers to add decorative grooves. It has been suggested that if these grooves could be 'read', similar to a stylus on a 78rpm record, then the sounds that were around those potters from thousands of years ago could themselves be heard. Too far fetched to be believable? I don't think so.

Have I ever seen a ghost? No. Have I ever seen an unexplained manifestation? Yes, with cats amongst other things. My wife and I have seen the same cat, and at the same time - which had died some months earlier - walk through our front room.

Imagine, if you will, being able to talk to a Victorian gentleman in the middle of a field. Somehow, you have managed to bring him forward in time.
You now introduce him to a radio. He hears voices - but is unable to explain them. You show him a portable television - how can he accept such a concept? You hand him a mobile telephone - he has no terms of reference to be able to comprehend what he can clearly hear and see.
Perhaps we are so close to explaining something that is all around us, but we cannot yet 'receive' it.

 

[statdad]

Why not believe that ghosts are the souls of the departed? Other than the fact there is no evidence that souls exist, none.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Heh. And now we have a hypothesis about the origins of the mysterious odor ... your apt. managers.

As I said, what made that part very mysterious wasn't just the odor, it was the fact that I could see no way for the odor to suddenly manifest, and then to dissipate as quickly. And it was very intense. The room smelled like someone had spilled a flowery perfume.

I have told this story a few times here. At one point Zooby had the managers hiding under my bed.

It was a waterbed. There was no "under".

 

[DaveC426913]

Imagine, if you will, being able to talk to a Victorian gentleman in the middle of a field. Somehow, you have managed to bring him forward in time.
You now introduce him to a radio. He hears voices - but is unable to explain them. You show him a portable television - how can he accept such a concept? You hand him a mobile telephone - he has no terms of reference to be able to comprehend what he can clearly hear and see.
Perhaps we are so close to explaining something that is all around us, but we cannot yet 'receive' it.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - A.C.C.

Seriously though.

The fundamental difference here, is that this Victorian gentleman can apply science to his mystery*. He can repeat his experiments and verify them. He can give them to someone else who, with his notes, can independently verify his experiments.

This is what puts it within the realm of science.

The big problem with ghostly manifestations is that they do not lend themselves to scientific investigation. And, until they do, they fall into the realm metaphysics.


* and before you rebutt with suggesting you take the device away before he can study it, well - now you're manipulating him and interfering with his efforts.

 

[Evo]

I have told this story a few times here. At one point Zooby had the managers hiding under my bed.

It was a waterbed. There was no "under".

And that never stopped Zooby from insisting this was the cause.

I don't think anyone can relate to this unless they too have experienced the seemingly inexplicable.

Yeah, I don't expect anyone to believe me, or even be able to comprehend.

When I realized that I had been playfully "fighting" this kitten with my foot, trying repeatedly to block him so I could close the door, then watch him run straight ahead of me and under the bed, and trapping him inside the room with me, only to find that I was completely alone. I cannot describe how the realization that I had been touching and watching something that wasn't there made me feel. I sat down and called my daughter and told her that I had just witnessed something I would swear was impossible.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Again, I love the logic of some people

"Something happened that I didn't know the explanation to right away, therefore it's paranormal!"

I mean come on, are people that impatient?

 

[waht]

I believe you Evo, and Ivan that you have encountered a mysterious phenomena. However, I doubt it has anything to do with the supernatural.

In Evo's case, you claimed to have seen a cat in your house. I can relate to that too. I've never had a cat before, and one day out of the blue a cat crept to my parent's house through an open front door. When I noticed it, it ran like hell back where it came from. No big deal. Cats like to wander around the neighborhood alot.

But since your cat died, and left great memories, you have mapped the experience with the cat you saw to your own cat that died. It's sort of like a confirmation bias.

What are some facts about cats? They are extremely stealthy. Why don't we hear stories that a rottweiler pops up a couple months after died? Cats are also territorial. Perhaps it showed up in your house to check up on old buddy.

 

[waht]

Ivans story has the component of fear. So much so that you didn't want to go back to your bed and slept on the couch as a result.

A possible reason is that the amygdala been has been stimulated, which is the primitive part of the brain responsible for some of the instinct reactions such as fear.

I'm not sure what exact mechanism is responsible for your experience, but looks like you went into some kind of a self induced hypnotic trance at the time.

Also if you look at other unrelated effects of the brain such as deja-vu or schizophrenia, you can get an idea what the brain is capable of. And a lot of communications between humans is nonverbal.

 

[Evo]

I believe you Evo, and Ivan that you have encountered a mysterious phenomena. However, I doubt it has anything to do with the supernatural.

In Evo's case, you claimed to have seen a cat in your house. I can relate to that too. I've never had a cat before, and one day out of the blue a cat crept to my parent's house through an open front door. When I noticed it, it ran like hell back where it came from. No big deal. Cats like to wander around the neighborhood alot.

But since your cat died, and left great memories, you have mapped the experience with the cat you saw to your own cat that died. It's sort of like a confirmation bias.

What are some facts about cats? They are extremely stealthy. Why don't we hear stories that a rottweiler pops up a couple months after died? Cats are also territorial. Perhaps it showed up in your house to check up on old buddy.

No, there was not a cat in the house. All doors and windows closed. Also, no emotional attachment to the dead cat. I lived in a rural area, it was a stray that I had been feeding only a couple of weeks, along with dozens of others that came and went, which is why I had completely forgotten about it.

And the cat would have been in a small bedroom with me, it wasn't a cat I just thought I saw slinking around in a big house.

Nice try, but no cigar.

I'm not making any claims as to what caused it, just that it happened. I ruled out everything logical, believe me, I went through everything many times. If it hadn't run directly in front of me and under the bed against the wall directly ahead of me, wth the only door behind me that I shut as it went under the bed, it would have left that option for it to have run off and hidden, and I would have to say I couldn't be certain. In this case, I am certain, which is what causes me to question what the heck I had been hitting with my foot. Like Ivan said, I don't expect anyone to understand or believe, I wouldn't believe someone else if they told me this. I'm just relating what happened and now understand that when someone says they've experienced something they can't explain, I know how odd it feels. (I don't believe in an afterlife, btw) I can't swear it was a kitten either, I just assumed it was, since I had a white kitten at the time.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Again, I love the logic of some people

"Something happened that I didn't know the explanation to right away, therefore it's paranormal!"

I mean come on, are people that impatient?

Note that I never once said that it was supernatural or paranormal. I merely described the events that took place. In fact I go out of my way to specify that I experienced the "seemingly inexplicable". The typical dodge is to imply that I have said otherwise.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ivans story has the component of fear. So much so that you didn't want to go back to your bed and slept on the couch as a result.

A possible reason is that the amygdala been has been stimulated, which is the primitive part of the brain responsible for some of the instinct reactions such as fear.

I'm not sure what exact mechanism is responsible for your experience, but looks like you went into some kind of a self induced hypnotic trance at the time.

Also if you look at other unrelated effects of the brain such as deja-vu or schizophrenia, you can get an idea what the brain is capable of. And a lot of communications between humans is nonverbal.

I considered many such explanations until my wife had the same experience ~ three weeks later.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I believe you Evo, and Ivan that you have encountered a mysterious phenomena. However, I doubt it has anything to do with the supernatural.

Given that anything real is "natural", clearly this is the case. My position is that by definition, nothing "supernatural" exists. The fallacy is to assign the label of "supernatural nonsense" to any mystery that can't be explained after five minutes of thought. As you said, it may well be a phenomenon that we don't understand. In fact I am quite sure of that much.

I didn't feel fear until I thought someone had broke into my apartment and was sitting on the bed. I think that is a pretty natural response.

 

[DaveC426913]

That is a story to give one pause. Not the least of which because it is coming from someone whose accounting I am satisfied is bona fide.

 

[waht]

I'm not making any claims as to what caused it, just that it happened. I ruled out everything logical, believe me, I went through everything many times. If it hadn't run directly in front of me and under the bed against the wall directly ahead of me, wth the only door behind me that I shut as it went under the bed, it would have left that option for it to have run off and hidden, and I would have to say I couldn't be certain. In this case, I am certain, which is what causes me to question what the heck I had been hitting with my foot. Like Ivan said, I don't expect anyone to understand or believe, I wouldn't believe someone else if they told me this. I'm just relating what happened and now understand that when someone says they've experienced something they can't explain, I know how odd it feels. (I don't believe in an afterlife, btw) I can't swear it was a kitten either, I just assumed it was, since I had a white kitten at the time.

Forgive my poor analysis of your experience. It's clear to me now that there was no cat in the house. In contrast, I truly find your experiences genuine for the reasons you said. I have experienced a number of different psychological effects, although not related to any ghosts, but many people wouldn't believe me either.

 

[waht]

I considered many such explanations until my wife had the same experience ~ three weeks later.

That is an interesting coincidence.

I didn't feel fear until I thought someone had broke into my apartment and was sitting on the bed. I think that is a pretty natural response.

Did you actually feel something pressing against you?

 

[quantumfireball]

Cats are surely one of the coolest creatures.
I had around 8-9 cats(one after the other)however all of them just disappeared suddenly without trace.Only two died of natural causes.
My neighbour recently brought me a kitten after the last one died after 20 days of being sick.This kitten is so smart,its really amazing what they are capable of inspite of their tiny little brains.
However at the end of the day they are just cats and not human souls having a feline phenotype.
If youll guys think that cats and other animals have souls how come youll are so quick to make innocent creatures suffer to satisfy your appetite for meat??

 

[quantumfireball]

BTW
I live in an ancestral home that's 200-250 years old.
So many of my ancestors have probably died in this home.
But tell you what i have never experienced anything supernatural in these 23 years of my existence.
And i have also stayed awake till 3:00 in the morning alone in my veranda,not even once have i felt a chill run down my spine.(However i still do get scared when i watch ghost stories to do the same)
Who am i to say that life does not exist after death.
But I am 99% sure that the dead if they exist don't intefere with the physical world by throwing objects around or making funny noises.
Afer all the dead don't have a voice box :-)
And unless your a Jain no other religion teaches that animals have souls.
Of course that is not an excuse for being cruel to them.

****im writing in such lousy english not because I am stupid

 

[Hanfonius]

One thing I have found to be common is that any person relating a 'ghost' story tends to embellish is somewhat, in order that it will sound more acceptable to the listener. This is true both when it happened to them, or to somebody else. I must confess to being guilty of this in the past.
To relate such a story, the teller feels rather insecure; he finds it necessary to make it more credible.

By this, I do not infer that any of the above stories are untrue. I believe them because you believe them.

I think I read somewhere that 25% of all Americans believe they have been abducted by UFO's. Some of them probably believe it really happened.

So why is it that I believe many of the ghost stories, yet not one of the UFO abductions?

 

[DaveC426913]

And unless your a Jain no other religion teaches that animals have souls.
Of course that is not an excuse for being cruel to them.
...
If youll guys think that cats and other animals have souls how come youll are so quick to make innocent creatures suffer to satisfy your appetite for meat??

yeahhhh...

: backs away slowly, avoiding any sudden moves :

 

[DaveC426913]

Forgive my poor analysis of your experience. It's clear to me now that there was no cat in the house.

I too misunderstood that element. All I got was
1] One kitten in a household of (an undetermined number of) pets - got into the room, and then couldn't be found in the room (not impossible to explain).
2] You realized that the kitten you saw could not have been the kitten you saw, since that one had died months ago (not impossible to explain).

 

[LightbulbSun]

Note that I never once said that it was supernatural or paranormal. I merely described the events that took place. In fact I go out of my way to specify that I experienced the "seemingly inexplicable". The typical dodge is to imply that I have said otherwise.

I wasn't directing my post at you. It's just these types of stories are always brimming out of people's mouths on a daily basis, and all we have are stories. No thorough investigations (but then again some people say investigations scare off these experiences from happening which is a major cop out IMO), nothing that's substantial. So all I can go on in your case is your word that all of these things really did happen.

I know a lot of people who said they saw some weird things in the dark. Well so do I. If I stare at a darkened room long enough I'll see some weird ****, but it doesn't mean I go jumping up and down saying it was something that's out of this realm.

 

[Hanfonius]

Forgetting for a moment whether we believe in ghosts or not, I believe we are looking at fragments of incomprehensible realities that we are presently unable to conceive. The sensation of 'knowing' that somebody is staring at us from behind in a crowded room...

We know that something is happening, but there are no convenient little boxes of certainty that we can slot them in to.

With our more realistic attitudes these days (rather than being told by a priest that it is God's will, and He works in mysterious ways), we attempt to rationalise the evidence and the facts. We might conclude that it is merely a coincidence, or that it is paranormal. May I suggest that both of these conclusions indicate a laziness in analysis.

Science develops through climbing up a very slippy pole. It is hard work, and very few people have the ability or tenacity to do this; there is no guarantee of success at the end. The majority of us tend to debunk the theories, while the minority attempt to understand them - we just don't have the handles to understand.

 

[Bored Wombat]

Who am i to say that life does not exist after death.

The biophysics of the situation is that brain activity does cease after death.

 

[Hanfonius]

The biophysics of the situation is that brain activity does cease after death.

Agreed. There again, I cannot recall reading of any credible account where a 'ghost' uses 'brain power', such as conversation, memory or logical expression. They seem to just have a presence, perhaps accompanied with a sundry of miscellaneous sound effects.

I was taught that the living individual exists in three interdependent formats - physical, mental and spiritual. Take anyone of them away and the other two perish. People do die by what we refer to as 'broken hearted' or 'losing the will to live'. They are then said to have 'given up the ghost'. Physiologically and psychologically, they may well be complete.