Atheism & Agnosticism: Logic of Beliefs & Origin of Christianity

  • Thread starter Dooga Blackrazor
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In summary: However, it is also possible that there is a god. In summary, the conversation revolved around the topic of atheism and agnosticism, and the origins of Christianity. The participants also discussed the possibility of a supreme being and the impact of religion on society. The conversation ended with a humorous exchange about dating and the concept of god in different religions. Overall, the main theme was the uncertainty surrounding the existence of a god and the differing beliefs between agnostics and atheists.
  • #1
Dooga Blackrazor
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If this topic needs to be deleted I apologize for making it. I wasn't sure from the thread what the rules were exactly. The topic is meant for a calm debate on what makes up atheism and agnosticism and what has more logic centered around it. I'm also curious about theories on origin of Christianity. Again, this isn't meant to start arguements and can be deleted or locked if necessary.

**

I do not believe in God, I believe in the possibility of God.
I do not believe that God doesn't exist, I believe it is possible he doesn't exist.

Does this make me Atheist, Agnostic, or both? Atheist Agnosticism is something else entirely though.

Also, are there any thoughts on what is more logical: atheism or agnosticism? Is it truly logical to discard the possibility of some sort of supreme being? What are the theories towards how Christianity and the history of religion started?
 
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  • #2
To put it simply, if God is made up of particles/atoms, he is a slave of the system, and therefore he is only the highest possible being in the system/universe.
If he is not made up of atoms, but is entirely separate and outside the universe, well, then we get to something completely different.

Who can possibly know what is outside our universe?
Both ideas of "the universe is too perfect to have a creator", and "well I say it's so perfect it HAS to have a creator or intellect of some sort" both apply.
So therefore, I believe being an agnostic is most logical.

However, I have discarded a biblical God, any type of God that people have created, I say we simply know NOTHING about any current creator or omiscient being in our universe. Nothing at all.
 
  • #3
Do you believe we know nothing because we can prove nothing, and we cannot confirm any ideological beliefs of monotheistic religions; or, do you believe that monotheist religions were simply created in all senses?

I discard a biblical God because of the shaky information I have been presented with and because there is no proof at this time that I deem correct. I don't necessarily deny the possibility that some historical religious happenings did occur; however, they were likely improperly documented over time.
 
  • #5
Dooga, your thread will remain open so long as it stays philosophical, which I can see is your intent. Let's not get into the Christianity subject however.

I would say you are more agnostic with the beliefs you stated. Atheists tend to deny any sort of creative intelligence. Agnostics just don't acknowledge but would be open to change (from what I understand).
 
  • #6
If this topic needs to be deleted I apologize for making it. I wasn't sure from the thread what the rules were exactly.
-------------------------------------------------------------
the rules are clear my child
this world bans philosophy
i've been banned on several forums

Philosopher Philocrazy
PS when philosophy makes money they turn it into a religion!
 
  • #7
philocrazy said:
the rules are clear my child
this world bans philosophy
i've been banned on several forums

Philosopher Philocrazy
PS when philosophy makes money they turn it into a religion!

interesting quotation there, although untrue
are you giving me warning that i may ban you too?
yes, the rules are quite clear,
so please adhere to them, and i assure you won't be a fool!
 
  • #8
warning?
not at all sir
i was merely accounting some hard facts of life in civilisation: "WESTERN DEMOCRACY"
western democracy is giving Philosophy Warnings!
you just gave me one

Is this forum free and Democratic?
i rest my case
 
  • #9
philocrazy said:
warning?
not at all sir
i was merely accounting some hard facts of life in civilisation: "WESTERN DEMOCRACY"
western democracy is giving Philosophy Warnings!
you just gave me one

Is this forum free and Democratic?
i rest my case

interesting you would address me as a "sir"
ignorant you are that i am a "her"
keep up the blathering,
and a ban of your membership i do assure.
 
  • #10
You guys are cracking me up. You should date.
 
  • #11
for some reason, people like this give me a reason to feel poetic.
i can't date though, i have a nice diamond on my left ring finger now :biggrin:
 
  • #12
There's are certain areas of our brains that make us feel spiritualy aware, these areas are a natural consequence of religion and evolution, religion makes our communities safer and better places to be for everyone - yeah I know not anymore, 3rd biggest killer in Europe religion and it's wars - therefore thoughts of religion will eventually lead to a positive imprinting on the brain. Does god exist? or did we make him up, chicken and egg, it's all pretty meaningless, one thing I will say though is that agnosticism is waiting for proof before making a decision, atheism is an absolute belief that god doesn't exist; in that case what's the difference between a christian and an atheist?
 
  • #13
Louis Cypher said:
..., atheism is an absolute belief that god doesn't exist...
Nope. An atheist simply lacks belief in god(s); nothing "absolute" about it.
 
  • #14
it is not all pretty meaningless if u believe that god is present in our everyday lives. :P

Dooga you are agnostic. agnostic is like you he might exist, but like dude he might not?!?... athesist are like the is NO god, wut so ever! u are "if"-yish so u are agnostic.

now for your other questions. Christainity/Judism(sry4spelling) differed from the main the beliefs of the Romans and Greeks. they thought that u went to the underworld now matter wut and that unless u were some BIG hero like Odysseus then u went to some flat area, the plains of something.The plains were pretty boring too, nothing to do for all eternity, unless u got pluto pissed off : ). Christianity/Judism says that u went to Heaven if u were a good little boy/girl, hence the term Ethical-Monotheism. i don't know about u but if I am picking a religion and one says that I am going to be doing nothing for the rest of my unatrual life and one says that ill be happy after I am dead...hmmm...tough decision!

now my thoughts on athesism vs "agnosticism"( can i even put the ism at the end of this word? nvr seen it spelled that way... o well)
i think that saying that humans know everything and that there is NO possiblity of anything odd being out there that doesn't really fit our sense of reality, is arrogant. if u believe that there are weird things that ppl don't experience in everyday life, in physics, such as TINY peices of matter, then who says that there can't be other weird things too? No, I am not saying that God is the size of a electron, or that he is even made of matter, but admiting that u are ignorant and then saying ur omniscient is just being stupid.
 
  • #15
this is a separate question from my other post so I am not editing.

then wut do atheist believe in besides that there is no god(s)?
 
  • #16
Doc Al said:
Nope. An atheist simply lacks belief in god(s); nothing "absolute" about it.
That's agnostic. Athiesm is a positive belief that god doesn't exist.
 
  • #17
Is that the accepted definition now? Dictionary.com states:

Atheism: Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
Disbelief: Refusal or reluctance to believe.
Belief: Something believed or accepted as true.

Under those definitions you could say that Agnosticism is a type of Atheism.
 
  • #18
Well, I guess its a little unclear what "disbelief" means (it may go either way), but "denial of" is a pretty clear positive belief. And since we have another word for describing the lack of belief (agnostic), it makes sense to differentiate.
 
  • #19
People have, in times past, been labeled ‘atheist’ for having belief in certain god(s) instead of others and I think in this day and age such thinking can be seen absurd. My preference involves examination of the words;

Theism: belief in a deity
A-Theism: without theism.

Atheism quite properly describes lack of belief and this in an of itself outlines no other view which may be held by the subject. When I describe myself as atheist there is nothing beyond what is outlined above I am attempting to convey. To ascribe anything beyond this is to force words and preconceptions into an unwilling mouth.
 
  • #20
However, the dictonary implies there is a difference between athiesm and agnosticism (sp?):
agnostic:
-One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
-One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
-One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
If an athiest is an agnostic, then what do you call someone who believes that there is no god?
 
  • #21
Does the agnostic have a belief in a deity?

A-Gnosis: without knowledge

Without knowledge of what?
If it is knowledge of a deity a further question might involve asking just how much knowledge is being spoken of. If it is meant to be absolute is it not then impossible to have belief in something for which one lacks any knowledge whatsoever? Personally, I do not care much for that word and believe it was invented to distance the originator from negative connotations associated with certain atheist people.

Atheist is short, simple, and speaks directly to the point. Going beyond lacking belief in a deity it is altogether possible to hold many other viewpoints. The same is of course true for theists who may have many different beliefs and yet still may properly be described as theists.

[edited for clarity (and removed the word 'scope')]
 
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  • #22
russ_watters said:
If an athiest is an agnostic, then…
I am not making such a claim.
…what do you call someone who believes that there is no god?
A believer.
 
  • #23
I used to be an agnostic long ago; I honestly didn't know (agnosis), :rofl: or really much care, whether there was a god or not. Then I had a conversion experience and became a Catholic for many years. I believed in God and a lot of other stuff too. Sometimes I still kinda beleieve some of it. Now I mostly call myself an atheist; I don't believe in a personal go at all, and I see no reason to add even such human details as a Deist god might posess to my interest and respect for the entirely non-personal iniverse.

So from personal experience (yay Chalmers) there is something there is like to be an agnostic, and it's different from what there is like to be an atheist. :rofl:
 
  • #24
On Atheism

The following website has lots of great information about atheism -
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/index.shtml [Broken]

This page, from that site, is specific about two "kinds" of atheism, and
also briefly discusses agnosticism, so I will include those statements -
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html#atheisms

"What is atheism?"

Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.

Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do not (or cannot) exist is known as "strong atheism".

Regarding people who have never been exposed to the concept of 'god': Whether they are 'atheists' or not is a matter of debate. Since you're unlikely to meet anyone who has never encountered religion, it's not a very important debate...

It is important, however, to note the difference between the strong and weak atheist positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is an explicitly held belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". There is a qualitative difference in the "strong" and "weak" positions; it's not just a matter of degree.

Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials.

"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?"

Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. Which brings us to agnosticism.

"What is agnosticism then?"

The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor T.H. Huxley at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876. He defined an agnostic as someone who disclaimed both ("strong") atheism and theism, and who believed that the question of whether a higher power existed was unsolved and insoluble. Another way of putting it is that an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not know for sure whether God exists. Some agnostics believe that we can never know.

In recent years, however, the term agnostic has also been used to describe those who simply believe that the evidence for or against God is inconclusive, and therefore are undecided about the issue.

To reduce the amount of confusion over the use of term agnosticism, it is recommended that usage based on a belief that we cannot know whether God exists be qualified as "strict agnosticism" and usage based on the belief that we merely do not know yet be qualified as "empirical agnosticism".

Words are slippery things, and language is inexact. Beware of assuming that you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people use agnosticism to mean what is referred to here as "weak atheism", and use the word "atheism" only when referring to "strong atheism".

Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning, it is very difficult to generalize about atheists. About all you can say for sure is that atheists don't believe in God. For example, it certainly isn't the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe.
For the record, I'm a strong atheist. I strongly believe gods cannot exist.
 
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  • #25
I'm an atheist in the sense that I don't have a belief in a god or gods. My gut feeling is that they don't exist. This gut feeling is based on my education and my experience of the world and thinking about it. But it's only a gut feeling, and as such, I allow for the possibility of a god or gods existing. Same as I do for unicorns and elves. And women who are attracted to me. :redface:
 
  • #26
"The self-proclaimed agnostic must still designate whether he does or does not believe in a god - and, in doing so, he commits himself to theism or to atheism. But he does commit himself. Agnosticism is not the escape clause that it is commonly thought to be."

--George H. Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
 
  • #27
Artorius said:
"The self-proclaimed agnostic must still designate whether he does or does not believe in a god - and, in doing so, he commits himself to theism or to atheism. But he does commit himself. Agnosticism is not the escape clause that it is commonly thought to be."

--George H. Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
Very true and that is just another reason why atheism is the word I prefer to use.
 
  • #28
Anthony Flew, a famous proponent of atheism who recently changed his mind, always delineated between two kinds of atheism. There is the positive atheist who denies the existence of a god and there is the negative atheist who is not a theist because he lacks sufficient reason to believe in a god. I think the difference between an agnostic and a negative atheist is that the negative atheist could be persuaded to acknowledge a deity whereas the agnostic would say it's impossible to know. A positive atheist concludes using some form of reasoning that there is no god.
 
  • #29
You can argue symantics etimology and origins of words all day but what it comes down to in the end is the common conception of those words meanings if you actually intend to communicate your ideas to someone.
Common definition of the word "athiest": One that believes god does not exist.
Common definition of the word "agnostic": One who does not believe one way or the other in the existence of god.
If you ask an agnostic "Do you believe god exists?", then by a strict logic it would have to answer no.
But at the same time if you ask an agnostic "Do you believe that god does not exist?" again by the same strict rules an agnostic would have to answer no.
BoulderHead said:
People have, in times past, been labeled ‘atheist’ for having belief in certain god(s) instead of others and I think in this day and age such thinking can be seen absurd.
I've seen such outmoded definitions for words like heathen, gentile, and pagan but never athiest. Could you site an example?
 
  • #30
You can argue symantics etimology and origins of words all day but what it comes down to in the end is the common conception of those words meanings if you actually intend to communicate your ideas to someone.
Yes, which is why the common definitions you went on to describe are not the end of this story. The intelligent speaker understands his audience and adjusts what is said to suit different groups or individuals in order to convey the clearest possible meaning. In some circumstances non-theist might be better understood than atheist.

I've seen such outmoded definitions for words like heathen, gentile, and pagan but never athiest. Could you site an example?
At the time I said that I was thinking of Romans accusing those who did not (or would not) worship their gods (or emperor), of atheism.
 
  • #31
Interesting.

russ_watters said:
That's agnostic. Athiesm is a positive belief that god doesn't exist.

TheStatutoryApe said:
Common definition of the word "athiest": One that believes god does not exist.

Personally, I find that the word "God" is insufficiently defined and therefore does not reference anything at all. Is not accepting that a word is properly defined the same as having a positive belief that something does not exist? I mean, if a word hasn't sufficient meaning to be even considered for existence, then surely it doesn't exist. However, that seems tautological.

I mean, I'm not agnostic on whether slithey tothes, the jabberwok, light-dark mumblies or fuzchiwonks exist. On the other hand, is it acceptable to say that I have a positive belief that slithey tothes do not exist? I mean, the word doesn't mean anything. I can't be any less positive about anything about it, and at the same time, can't be any less agnostic on whether I think it's there.

There seems to me to be a false dichotomy afoot.

In otherwords, I find your definition of atheist too strict. Saying I have a positive belief there is no god would, in my opinion, be misrepresenting my views. Saying that I am not commited to whether it exists or not would also be in error. I find there is not even an idea with which to have belief or not have belief. I suppose you can call me whatever you like, but it would seem to me I'm more an atheist than an agnostic.
 
  • #32
Non-cognitivism, eh? I've always considered that an interesting idea, even though I don't buy the empirical verification theory of meaning. What exactly does the word "God" refer to?
 
  • #33
could u please explain the basics of the empirical verification theory of meaning? ty
 
  • #34
3mpathy said:
could u please explain the basics of the empirical verification theory of meaning? ty

The only factually meaningful statements are those that can, in principle, be verified empirically. By this standard, the statement "God exists" is factually meaningless without a clear formulation of what "God" means (clear meaning empirically verifiable).
 
  • #35
loseyourname said:
The only factually meaningful statements are those that can, in principle, be verified empirically. By this standard, the statement "God exists" is factually meaningless without a clear formulation of what "God" means (clear meaning empirically verifiable).

I disagree, everything makes sense given the certain context, and, as for the "meaning", well, it has more to it than what meets the eye, meaning is a requirement of our flawed perception, life and everything surrounding it, is just a micro system within the universe, and we (humam beings) are a system within life's system, a program, a bio-machine, and our basic instructions are to grow, feed, and reproduce, every other instructions that humans now possesses where gained with time and we have to remember that the humam being broke quite some rules within is nature to became what it is now. What I'm trying to say is that with all this time the humam program/consciousness had suffer some major changes, either way, the ability to perceive is something so complex that could suffer some drastic errors, for instance, imagine this:

we create a super computer with the purpose of descriving flavor, for that to be possible, this computer would have to possesses some AI and we would have try to teach it what flavor does consist, when we gave it an apple, how could we know that the apple would taste for it?
given this another question emerges, how can I know that an apple taste equal to you compared how it tastes to me? we can never know if our perceptions are the same, could we?
 

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