Hobbit" Human Ancestor Found in Asia - National Geographic News

  • Thread starter Ivan Seeking
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In summary, scientists have found human-like skeletons from a species that only grew to three feet tall and had a brain size about one third of modern humans. The discovery suggests that Homo floresiensis shared the planet with Homo sapiens, and may have been the ancestor of modern human.
  • #36
"Hobbit" Humans Were Diseased, Not New Species, Study Says

The "hobbit" humans that lived on the Indonesian island of Flores some 18,000 years ago were actually a population of modern humans stricken with a genetic disease that causes small brains, a new study says.

The argument is being made by a group of scientists who have analyzed all the scientific evidence presented so far about the evolution of the proposed species Homo floresiensis. [continued]
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/hobbit-1.html
 
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  • #37
  • #38
... In the new study, Dean Falk, of Florida State University, and her colleagues say the remains are those of a completely separate human species: Homo floresiensis.

They have published their findings in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. [continued]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6311619.stm
 
  • #39
wow, what if this is an example of convergant evolution, not divergent. maybe we don't share a recent common ancestor at all, but the hominid structure offered advantiges for them.
Arent there pygmies that live on new zealand or somewhere?
wow, intense
 
  • #40
...Tocheri, an expert in the evolution of the human wrist, could see immediately that the hobbit's wrist bones looked just like those of a chimpanzee, or an early hominid such as Australopithecus, and had none of the specialisations for grasping that are seen in the wrist bones of modern humans. A careful statistical comparison gave the same conclusion.

"The modern human wrist hasn't looked like this for at least 800,000 years, and maybe much longer," says Tocheri. "It was immediately apparent to me that the hobbit is the real deal."

...the leading advocate of the microcephaly explanation, remains unconvinced. No one has studied the wrist bones of microcephalic humans, he notes, so it is pure conjecture to say they would not look like the hobbit's bones.[continued]
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12667-hobbit-wrist-bones-suggests-a-distinct-species.html
 
  • #42
Bones of Archaic 3-feet tall humans discovered - some ONLY 900 years old!

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/03/080310-palau-bones.html"

Some of the bones are ancient and indicate inhabitants of particularly small size, scientists announced today.

The remains are between 900 and 2,900 years old

The smaller, older bones represent people who were 3 to 4 feet (94 to 120 centimeters) tall and weighed between 70 and 90 pounds (32 and 41 kilograms), according to the paper.

According to Berger, the estimated brain size of the early Palauans is about twice the size of the hobbit brain.

Several other features, including the shape of the face and hips, suggest that the Palauan bones should be classified as Homo sapiens.

If the interpretation of the Palauan remains is correct, the find may add more fuel to the debate over whether the Flores hobbit is a unique species, Berger said.

Aside from being tiny, the Palauan bones show that some of these people lacked chins and had deep jaws, large teeth, and small eye sockets, according to the paper.

Some of these features were considered important in originally distinguishing the hobbit as a unique—and archaic—species, Berger said.

But the Palauan remains suggest these features may just be a consequence of insular dwarfism, a shrinking process that some scientists attribute to the stresses of a small island environment.
​

So, is the Hobbit really a different species or a variation within humans (given how we have found a hobbit-like group of humans in Palau)?
 
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  • #43
It sounds to me like a variation within humans. Humans, after all, do adapt to best fit their surroundings and being short and having such distinctive characteristics could be beneficial. I recently read an article of a different group of humans in Greenland (I believe) who were found to look human in structure, but they had thicker bones, longer hands, larger brains and skulls, et cetera. They are believed to have been some of the earliest people to have adapted to extremely cold weather.
 
  • #44
I've merged this with Ivan's thread. The answer is in post #41.
 
  • #45
...The hypothesis has been described as "sheer speculation" by some experts, including Professor Peter Brown of the University of New England in Armidale, Australia, one of the original members of the team that discovered the remains.

"The conclusions in this paper are not supported by the facts," he said. "The authors have not examined the original fossil, have little and no experience with fossil hominids and depend upon data obtained by others." [continued]

Based on the first skull found, some skeptics were all but certain that it was a microcephalic human, until the team found more skeletons. When they were faced with an entire tribe of mycrocephalic midgets that lived for I think thousands of years, they abandoned the idea. So if the skulls are virtually identical to that of a microcecphalic skull, how does island dwarfing or malnutrition account for this? There is also a problem with the size of the brain and the complex skills that they apparently had, such as fire making, hunting, and tool making.
 
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  • #46


The latest on the Hobbits, from Nova
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hobbit/program.html

It sounds like things are leaning heavily towards a new species.

I just noticed that earlier I said hydrocephalic, when I should have said microcephalic. :rolleyes: Just a bit of a difference there.
 
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  • #47


"The tiny humans, who had skulls about the size of grapefruits"

It's not a 'human' or a 'hobbit', its a monkey!
Look, we found live orangutangs and fondly call them 'the old men of the forest'. If there were no living 'tangs' some bright spark would probably have found a 'tang' skeleton and truly called it an old man from the forest, but its just a monkey!
 
  • #48


Apparently the evolution of our species isn't as cut an dried as some people would like to think. This tiny human has very few features in common with Neanderthals yet existed during the paleolithic. Nice find Ivan
 
  • #49


That is tremendous!

Very Interesting find, thanks!
 
  • #50
Hobbits 'are a separate species'

Scientists have found more evidence that the Indonesian "Hobbit" skeletons belong to a new species of human - and not modern pygmies.

The one metre (3ft) tall, 30kg (65lbs) humans roamed the Indonesian island of Flores, perhaps up to 8,000 years ago.

Since the discovery, researchers have argued vehemently as to the identity of these diminutive people.

Two papers in the journal Nature now support the idea they were an entirely new species of human...[video included]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8036396.stm

How many old legends are now called into question as potentially legitimate, in principle?

One really wild story comes from one of the original researchers on this who claimed to have seen a living hobbit, on Flores!
 
  • #51


Ivan Seeking said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8036396.stm

How many old legends are now called into question as potentially legitimate, in principle?

One really wild story comes from one of the original researchers on this who claimed to have seen a living hobbit, on Flores!

I hadn't thought of that Ivan, this sub-species of human could easily have started a number of myths and legends.

If trade was relatively well established around the world much earlier than is currently reported (as it is beginning to look like), these little guys could easily have been brought along as trading trinkets or just as "branding" novelties that promoted the trader who brought them. Some could just as easily have escaped and stayed in regions from where "the little people" stories have harkened. Take Ireland for example.
 
  • #52


baywax said:
I hadn't thought of that Ivan, this sub-species of human could easily have started a number of myths and legends.

If trade was relatively well established around the world much earlier than is currently reported (as it is beginning to look like), these little guys could easily have been brought along as trading trinkets or just as "branding" novelties that promoted the trader who brought them. Some could just as easily have escaped and stayed in regions from where "the little people" stories have harkened. Take Ireland for example.

A couple of years ago I was discussing the idea that myths and legends often have a basis in truth, with a friend from Ireland. He laughed and demanded that I show him the little people, so I directed him to "Homo Floresiensis" as a possible explanation. The smile on his face suddenly disappeared. :biggrin:

When this story first broke, I started a thread about some of the legends and myths.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=50855
 
  • #53


Ivan Seeking said:
A couple of years ago I was discussing the idea that myths and legends often have a basis in truth, with a friend from Ireland. He laughed and demanded that I show him the little people, so I directed him to "Homo Floresiensis" as a possible explanation. The smile on his face suddenly disappeared. :biggrin:

When this story first broke, I started a thread about some of the legends and myths.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=50855

I think I smiled bigger when I heard the news.

The existence and occurrence of the Indonesian "homosapien minimus" (not a real name) holds a lot of promise in uncovering the origin of many stories that have lasted 1000s of years in various human folklore. The stories are not passed along with a date, no copyright, so when we find possible, probable or definite sources of their content this helps to date the story and perhaps the era of that story.

For instance, there is a version of the Santa Claus tale from northwestern europe about Cinder Claus and his little black elf. Cinder Claus would reward any good children and the little black elf would stuff the bad ones into Cinder Claus' bag and beat them with hammers... er... or like a broom or something (maybe a dash of waterboarding). Then they'd be abducted by the ruthless pair.

Looking at this tale with the knowledge of this Indonesian version of humans and with our knowledge of very early trading practices between Turkey and Scandinavia, (as early if not earlier than 300 AD after Scandinavians navigated the Dneiper River system through Russia to Istanbul) we can see that there may be a connection between the little black hellion and our Indonesian cousins. This is because once the Scandinavians got to Istanbul, they became privy to all of the blunders of the Turkish Empire and its outstandingly accurate navigational charts. On these charts are the Indonesian islands and their booty could have well included curious little "black" people that were perhaps collected and kept to breed during the previous millennia of Turkish history (of 23,000 yrs).

Thanks!
 
  • #54


baywax said:
For instance, there is a version of the Santa Claus tale from northwestern europe about Cinder Claus and his little black elf. Cinder Claus would reward any good children and the little black elf would stuff the bad ones into Cinder Claus' bag and beat them with hammers... er... or like a broom or something (maybe a dash of waterboarding). Then they'd be abducted by the ruthless pair.

The final chapter from the local lore on Flores tells of an "Ebu Gogo" that came into the village and stole a child [a baby, IIRC]. The villagers then attacked and ran the Ebu Gogo out of their cave, with fire [not sure if they killed them or just ran them off]. Less the rare anecdotal reports, they were never seen again.

All very interesting, Baywax!

Btw, did you mean to say "plunders" instead of "blunders"? :biggrin:

Late edit: Abu changed to Ebu.
 
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  • #55


Ivan Seeking said:
The final chapter from the local lore on Flores tells of an "Abu Gogo" that came into the village and stole a child [a baby, IIRC]. The villagers then attacked and ran the Abu Gogo out of their cave, with fire [not sure if they killed them or just ran them off]. Less the rare anecdotal reports, they were never seen again.

All very interesting, Baywax!

Btw, did you mean to say "plunders" instead of "blunders"? :biggrin:

It would be a lot more interesting if I had some more concrete evidence to back it all up.
The Vikings had a tremendous influence on Kiev and the Slavic people during the use of their this trade route. Many blundering plunders and oppression took place, as would suit the times.

Thanks Ivan!
 
  • #56


baywax said:
It would be a lot more interesting if I had some more concrete evidence to back it all up.

Sure, for now it is all speculation, but it is tantalizing and one has to wonder. It will be interesting to see if we find any distinctively similar bones in other locations - not on Flores. At this point I have to wonder if we don't already have other misidentified examples.
 
  • #57


Ivan Seeking said:
Sure, for now it is all speculation, but it is tantalizing and one has to wonder. It will be interesting to see if we find any distinctively similar bones in other locations - not on Flores. At this point I have to wonder if we don't already have other misidentified examples.

Is there no way to extract DNA from the specimens? There has been some, limited success getting it from Neanderthal remains. That would help.
 
  • #58


Given all of the controversy, I've been wondering about that myself.
 
  • #59


This is an old interview in which the local legends are discussed a bit.

Villagers speak of the small, hairy Ebu Gogo
Richard Roberts, discoverer of the Hobbit, says local tales suggest the species could still exist

When I was back in Flores earlier this month we heard the most amazing tales of little, hairy people, whom they called Ebu Gogo - Ebu meaning grandmother and Gogo meaning 'he who eats anything'. The tales contained the most fabulous details - so detailed that you'd imagine there had to be a grain of truth in them...
http://www.primates.co.uk/ebu-gogo/index.html
 
  • #60
  • #62


...LB1 stood at least a meter tall and displays primitive-looking skeletal traits from head to toe, Jungers says. H. floresiensis must have evolved from a species that was older, smaller and anatomically more primitive than Asian H. erectus, perhaps 2.4-million-year-old Homo habilis in Africa, Jungers proposes. An evolutionary transition from H. habilis to hobbits would have required little or no reduction in body size, in his view.

This proposal clashes with earlier interpretations of other hobbit fossils, also from the Indonesian island of Flores, that suggest a large-bodied H. erectus population from southeastern Asia evolved into H. floresiensis. H. erectus lived in southeastern Asia by 90,000 years ago, when hobbits first inhabited Flores. And other animals are known to have evolved into small species on islands, a process known as island dwarfing...
http://www.usnews.com/articles/scie...ot-hippo-skulls-deepen-ancestral-mystery.html
 
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  • #63


And other animals are known to have evolved into small species on islands, a process known as island dwarfing...

Komodo Dragon not included.

http://skew.dailyskew.com/uploaded_images/komodo-dragon-731086.jpg
 
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  • #64


baywax said:
Komodo Dragon not included.

http://skew.dailyskew.com/uploaded_images/komodo-dragon-731086.jpg
[/URL]

Apparently Komodo dragons were twice their current size in the day of the hobbit.
 
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  • #65


i'd thought that subsequent cranial cavity evidence supported the theory that the specimen was human. Or maybe I'm recalling a different investigation.
 
  • #66


You might want to view the latest pbs special linked, if you haven't already. As I understand it, in order to be human they would have had an entire colony of microcephalics living for thousands of years. This is apparently extremely unlikely. Much of the original controvesy was based on only one skeleton. There are other distinctive features cited that suggest a parallel species, rather than mutant humans.
 
  • #67


Ivan Seeking said:
Apparently Komodo dragons were twice their current size in the day of the hobbit.

Holy §•ø©.
 
  • #68


baywax said:
Holy §•ø©.

No kidding! I'm not sure where I heard that. It was in one of the sources linked earlier in this thread, but this seems to addess the same subject.

The Biogeography of the Komodo Dragon...

Evolution:
They share a common past with dinosaurs but are not direct descendants. Both dinosaurs and monitor lizards belong to the subclass Diapsida (Ciofi, 1999). The earliest fossils from this subclass go back to the late Carboniferous period, about 300 million years ago. Monitor lizards are related to Lepidsauria which emerged from Diapsida, about 250 million years ago at the end of the Paleozoic era. About 100 million years ago, during the Cretaceous era, a species related to contemporary varanids appear in the fossil records of central Asia. Marine lizards from this species went extinct, along with dinosaurs, about 65 million years ago. During the Eocene, 50 million years ago, land monitors spread throughout Europe and South Asia. The Varanus genus appeared and evolved about 40 and 25 million years ago in Asia. Varanids made it to Australia about 15 million years ago when Australia collided with southeast Asia. Then 2 million years later a second lineage differentiated and moved throughout Australia and the Indonesian archipelago when the two were much closer. Lower sea levels allowed the dragons to reach their destination. Varanus komodoensis differentiated from its earliest Australian relative about 4 million years ago (Ciofi, 1999). Komodos migrated to the islands of Flores, Rinca and Gila Motang, which were joined about 10,000 years ago. The island of Komodo joined the other islands around 20,000 years ago during the last Ice Age.

Fossil evidence supports the idea that Komodo dragons may be relics of a larger distribution, stretching as far as the eastern portion of Flores to Timor. Fossils from pygmy elephants, stegodont, found on both Timor and Flores suggest that the two islands may have been close enough to allow migration during the Pleistocene era. The existence of large mammals provided an adequate supply of food to feed lizards as large as Komodo dragons and possibly larger. Megalania prisca, a varanid, could have reached lengths up to 23 feet and weighed up to a ton due to the existence of stegodonts or pygmy elephants (Diamond, 1992). These enormous varanids, that have been extinct for 25,000 years, may explain how Komodo dragons evolved to be such large carnivores in an ecosystem that has a limited amount of resources...
http://www.sfsu.edu/~geog/bholzman/courses/316projects/komodo.htm
 

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