Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[rhody]

An observation, the US media seems to have "moved on" to the Libyan and other issues, there are no followup or current stories edit: (Google News, 9: 45 EST) regarding containment/cleanup status of the crippled reactors in Japan. I guess I should not be surprised, but I find it odd to say the least, considering the long term implications of this disaster for Japan and the world.

Rhody...

 

[Angry Citizen]

An observation, the US media seems to have "moved on" to the Libyan and other issues, there are no followup or current stories regarding containment/cleanup status of the crippled reactors in Japan. I guess I should not be surprised, but I find it odd to say the least, considering the long term implications of this disaster for Japan and the world.

Rhody...

In my opinion, this is good news. The mass media are vultures. If they're not reporting on Fukushima, it means the situation has stabilized such that they can't induce even artificial panic among the populace like they've been doing. And that's not to downplay the severity of this incident -- it just seems like the Japanese have it handled now. That may be premature optimism, but I have reasons. Notably, power is being restored, radiation levels are dropping, the attempts to cool the spent fuel ponds were successful, and like I said, news media is running grudgingly optimistic stories of successes -- buried amidst their usual nonsense so that few will see it, of course. Forgive my cynicism.

 

[rogerl]

They (cameras) would become another piece of rad waste to chuck out, plus they would jeopardized fuel bundle channels when they broke apart during reactor operations. I do not know of any devices currently installed with in a RPV that has electrical cables attached and are as flimsy as a Radio Shack camcorder. How would you broadcast the images? WIFI, I don't think so. Take the video camera of your choice and put it into a pressure cooker and in the oven set at 500 + degrees F and see how long it continues to broadcast via WIFI.

Oh. I watched Discovery Channel "Disaster at Chernobyl" with the timeline of the disaster and there was this part where the worker inside the reactor core saw the fuel rods vibrating and try to wave to the camera connected to the control room. Thought it was accurate reenactment. Darn Discovery channel.

 

[rhody]

In my opinion, this is good news. The mass media are vultures. If they're not reporting on Fukushima, it means the situation has stabilized such that they can't induce even artificial panic among the populace like they've been doing. And that's not to downplay the severity of this incident -- it just seems like the Japanese have it handled now. That may be premature optimism, but I have reasons. Notably, power is being restored, radiation levels are dropping, the attempts to cool the spent fuel ponds were successful, and like I said, news media is running grudgingly optimistic stories of successes -- buried amidst their usual nonsense so that few will see it, of course. Forgive my cynicism.

Angry,

I agree with you, the media in general moves from one crisis de jour to the next. Let's hope what you said in your post: "power is being restored, radiation levels are dropping, the attempts to cool the spent fuel ponds were successful" holds and improves with time.

AntonL,

Can you give us a bit more detail on your post https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3198828&postcount=591" above, excerpt below:

Lets suppose some of the equipment pools water was "borrowed" to make up lost water in the neighbouring reactors, this would save
the reactors (once sea water injection started the reactors are scrapped), Also remember Hilary Clinton
at the beginning of the catastrophe announced that USA is urgently sending special coolant to the site,
thus "borrowing" water from the equipment pool does not seem to be a bad and dangerous decision;
unless supposedly some fuel was stored in the equipment pool of unit 4 as the SFP is completely full
because of maintenance. This could explain the hydrogen development and the two short lived fires
that self extinguished in reactor 4, and lay weight to the speculation in this thread regarding the molten mass.

This sounds like a reasonable approach to me, mixing special coolant and borrowing water from a containment pool to cool fuel and or spent fuel which presents more of an imminent danger. Bright thinking by the nuclear power experts who proposed and then briefed Secretary of State Clinton of the strategy.

Just for clarification to those new to this thread, which reactor uses the reprocessed plutonium mixed oxide fuel (MOX), and if I understand correctly could release much more toxic radiation artifacts ?

Finally, it was reported earlier in this thread that spent fuel may have been moved, and the vehicle was abandoned in the explosion events, and two vehicles can be seen in the high resolution photo posted here. If so what hazard do the sealed container(s) with spent fuel present if left unattended for significant periods of time ?

Thanks...

Rhody...

 

[AntonL]

AntonL,

Can you give us a bit more detail on your post https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3198828&postcount=591" above, excerpt below:

This sounds like a reasonable approach to me, mixing special coolant and borrowing water from a containment pool to cool fuel and or spent fuel which presents more of an imminent danger. Bright thinking by the nuclear power experts who proposed and then briefed Secretary of State Clinton of the strategy.

Rhody...

There is no more detail!

Please read in full content, I started with:
Now I must be careful in italics below is just my imagination and speculation and not reality:
(I now have highlighted this in original post)

I was just imagining what resources and options that disaster management had - I repeat just imagination

As such, to my knowledge, No such proposal as Rhody mentions was made to Mrs Clinton !

 

[TCups]

REGARDING THE EXPLOSION & WRECKAGE AT UNIT 3

Still wondering if anyone else thinks this is more like a jet of steam venting than a more diffuse cloud of steam rising from a pool of hot water.

If the orientation is correct as per jensjakob's observation, post #576, could this jet of steam be from the region of the "cattle chute" transfer channel between the SPF to the left and the region of the reactor vessel on the right?

Very interesting in light of minerva's post #588 regarding the pump and seal failure on the gate as a potential source for leakage of the fuel in the SFP.

Could water leakage from the SFP into the reactor containment contribute to a steam explosion upward out of the reactor containment, from around the outside of the reactor vessel, and if not blowing the plug, then perhaps blowing out the gates on the chute? Might it then also blow out a good portion of what was in the SFP as well as the the roof over the SFP, leaving a residual venting steam leak from the gate region, but leaving the reactor vessel intact?

What else might have resulted in the very different, vertical blast dynamic at unit 3 if the reactor vessel is still intact and venting steam?

Whatever blew vertical should have at least blown a hole through the roof, if not blowing the roof off completely, as well as blowing the side panels outward. The only obvious candidate for a hole in the roof looks, after the subsequent collapse, to be over the region of the SFP. Could a sidewise and upward blast out of the gate and upward out of the SFP blown out 3 walls with the wall opposite the pool and reactor gate being spared, then collapsing inward, together with what was left of the roof?

It looks like at least two layers of steel girders have collapsed over the region of the reactor at unit three. One is a portion of the roof, I believe. The other is diagonally oriented with respect to the roof girders and appears to be part of the upper wall structure over the reactor area, but if so, it appears to me it would have had to have fallen inward rather than being blasted outward.

What is the significance of two fuel cask transfer trucks out back of unit 3? Were they likely to have been uploading or downloading fuel?

So many questions. So few answers.

 

[swimmer]

An observation, the US media seems to have "moved on" to the Libyan and other issues, there are no followup or current stories edit: (Google News, 9: 45 EST) regarding containment/cleanup status of the crippled reactors in Japan. I guess I should not be surprised, but I find it odd to say the least, considering the long term implications of this disaster for Japan and the world.

Rhody...

Rhody, and anyone else interested, CNN has been continuously streaming NHK World TV online with interpreters translating audio into English live. This evening (Japan time) there was a detailed report on state of affairs in all 6 plants at Fukushima Daiichi. I only caught the end of it but NHK usually repeats these during the night. (I'll post a link as soon as I find a video of it, I can only give a summary here). Apparently TEPCO is working hard and making progress but this situation is a long way from stabilized. I am impressed with NHK, calm reporting, experts giving proper information, clear explanations of all the courses of action and risks involved. They had the big model of the entire facility showing some progress on getting power supply from outside to plant no1 and no3 as well as a big model of a single plant. They emptied a bottle of blue water into a SFP and pointed out the pipework needing to be able to circulate this water to clarify the cooling function, lots of technical information explained very swiftly and effectively. But even for a curious amateur like me, it was a lot to take in. It's also sobering news. Workers are apparently having to work with flaslights in the dark in high levels of radiation, there are cooling problems with reactors no1,2,3 and 4. Unfortunately, they're now having trouble getting water inside plant no2 because the exterior walls are still intact. The mind boggles. Reactor no 4 seems to be especially worrying.

[PLAIN]http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/9301/nhk2011032021301.png

[PLAIN]http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2687/nhk2011032021302.png

[PLAIN]http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/9691/nhk2011032021303.png

[PLAIN]http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2025/nhk2011032021304.png

Also, NHK reported minutes ago a brief TEPCO press conference: IR images taken at altitude 900m have shown that all fuel rods are below 100°C. Official added that cooling effort needs to be continued. No IR images were shown

All these despatches are missing exposure data.

 

[swimmer]

Also, NHK reported minutes ago a brief TEPCO press conference: IR images taken at altitude 900m have shown that all fuel rods are below 100°C. Official added that cooling effort needs to be continued. No IR images were shown

All these despatches are missing exposure data.

I forgot to add: There was NO mention of IR readings of any of the reactors.

 

[2ndResponder]

On the question of viewing the damage... Given the radiation, both human beings and electronics are not good ideas, and even moving parts may be iffy. What do you think of this idea:
* Platform -- suspend a lighter-than-air balloon over the site, tethered to 3 very long cables on ground-based winches, so that by altering their lengths the position of the balloon can be changed. ( I think the US uses single-cable tethered balloons to view parts of the gulf coast already.)

* Viewing mechanism: Use a large diameter lens to focus light down to a fiber-optic cable, 400 meters in length (or whatever is required), to a ground-based image intensifier.

Would that work? All the moving parts and electronics are ground-based and can be shielded with heavy materials.

 

[Astronuc]

I read some pretty harsh comments on TEPCO and the 'operators'.

Bear in mind that the folks at the plant have family and homes in the area of the plant, so besides themselves, they have a significant personal stake in minimizing the consequences of the Fukushima event. Depending of where they live, I wonder if any lost homes or family members in the tsunami. I can't imagine having to stay on site and keeping one's mind on the emergency, while trying to find out if one's family is OK, and perhaps not hearing for hours or days.

With respect to surveillance, systems already exist, both mobile robotics and small submersible camera systems, that can be placed in units. They could also use reflector telescopes from a distance, and small radio-controlled helicopters, balloons or booms/cranes to hold cameras at distance.

The biggest impediment will be the debris from the collapsed structures that will have to be removed. At some point, new systems systems will have to be in place to remove the plug and heavy equipment.

 

[AntonL]

It is reported that 40 tonnes of sea water have been pumped into the spent fuel pool of reactor unit 2.

NHK also reports of very high radioactive debris lying around reactors 3 and 4.

A military tank (as in war) will now be deployed to bulldoze the area and shift this debris, the thick armor plating hopefully shielding the operator from the radiation.

 

[Astronuc]

REGARDING THE EXPLOSION & WRECKAGE AT UNIT 3

Still wondering if anyone else thinks this is more like a jet of steam venting than a more diffuse cloud of steam rising from a pool of hot water.

We need more details, or a direct observation, otherwise we can only speculate.

One possibility would be a leak somewhere - perhaps a valve. Perhaps the leak is bypassing the plug near the transfer canal. But that is pure speculation.

Could there be cracks/leaks in the primary containment?

 

[rhody]

There is no more detail!

Please read in full content, I started with:
Now I must be careful in italics below is just my imagination and speculation and not reality:
(I now have highlighted this in original post)

I was just imagining what resources and options that disaster management had - I repeat just imagination

As such, to my knowledge, No such proposal as Rhody mentions was made to Mrs Clinton !

AntonL,

I understand and apologize, imagination is a wonderful thing, it comes up with amazing insight and creative solutions to what at first can be believed are impossible problems. I retract my statement about the briefing and advisement for Secretary of State Clinton... but it is certainly within the realm of possibility, hats off to your imagination.

I will leave it up to you, but if you want to delete the original speculation I will remove my response to it to make sure nothing can be misinterpreted, your call.
I will check back for your reply...

Rhody... sheepish... crawls slowly under a rock...

 

[swimmer]

In case CNN has stopped NHK live stream (it seems so), go to:
"[URL
[/URL]
or
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html"

They're bringing in a tank to clear debris, big problems with getting water and power inside plant no2. Not even light inside. So we're not the only ones 'in the dark', we're only luckier than the TEPCO workers.

 

[AntonL]

I will leave it up to you, but if you want to delete the original speculation I will remove my response to it to make sure nothing can be misinterpreted, your call.
I will check back for your reply...

please check my original post now pointing out in bold red letters that what follows is just my imagination - I would leave it because a hydrogen explosion in unit 4 seems so unlikely if SFP is full and had apparently with enough water after explosion according to TEPCO statements.

 

[romillyh]

Just a plea to all contributing to this excellent thread to pls keep posting until we are through this and situation is stabilized with some confidence. The combination of expertise, sheer detail, and sharp questions is my reality check. Thanks especially to Astronuc, of course, but also to e.g. TCups for sticking to guns -- as well as others who reason knowledgeably for or against various speculations. And to swimmer for the NHK links. It's all most helpful.

Brief background: Am using info here and elsewhere to try to help 3 families in Tokyo decide what moves to make, if any. One father has already moved his family (wife & 2 kids) down to Ehime prefecture on Shikoku, a decision he made early on before input from me. He's desperate to move them out of the country altogether, but can't. Another with family I haven't heard from since 14th, so I assume he's also left Tokyo and can't get to a computer. The third is teacher of a well-known young pianist who has 3 recitals imminent in Japan and then another at the Japan Festival in New York April 3rd, so they have little option but to stay with the pianos in Tokyo!

A cousin of mine plus (Japanese) family fled Japan Tuesday on a flight booked last year. They are so relieved to be out. Ironically they were worried about the predicted Great Tokai quake, supposed to be coming in the south. This quake in the north was apparently quite unexpected.

So, please keep posting. It's potentially a lifeline, and much appreciated.

 

[TCups]

We need more details, or a direct observation, otherwise we can only speculate.

One possibility would be a leak somewhere - perhaps a valve. Perhaps the leak is bypassing the plug near the transfer canal. But that is pure speculation.

Could there be cracks/leaks in the primary containment?

Astronuc:

The larger point is that steam is being generated somewhere and at unit 3, that steam's source is almost certainly the reactor. All reports seem to indicate that the reactor vessel at 3, while it may be damaged, isn't melted down such that the melted core contents went through the bottom of the reactor vessel and into the pool of water below, resulting in a "champaign cork" explosion, ejecting the plug.

So if I proceed from the assumption, which seem reasonable, that the reactor vessel and plug are intact, I am still left with two fundamental questions: why was the blast at 3 so large and so vertical compared to units 1 & 4? What mechanism might be responsible.

The pictures suggest structural damage to the roof over the region of the SFP, and that the deep pool may (and I stress may) have been the source of the vertical component of the explosion. I must assume that the explosion was a combination of H2 (coming from the reactor, not the fuel in the SPF) and steam. The transfer chute seems to be a possible connection.

Here is a hypothetical question or two for which you may have an answer: If a portion of the cooling water in the SFP leaked through the transfer chute after the seals on the gates of the chute failed, then where does the leaked water go? What if any consequence might that have other than lowering the level of water in the pool faster than evaporation?

 

[swimmer]

In case CNN has stopped NHK live stream (it seems so), go to:
"[URL
[/URL]
or
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html"

NHK now broadcasting the status report I mentioned earlier.

 

[Naty1]

Drinking water sample reading in Tokyo:

"The sample contained 1.5 becquerals per kg of iodine 131, well below the tolerable limit for food and drink of 300 becquerals per kg, the government added."

(I lost the news report..)

Anybody know what a typical reading was in Tokyo water BEFORE all the nuclear "meltdown" hype?

 

[swimmer]

Drinking water sample reading in Tokyo:

"The sample contained 1.5 becquerals per kg of iodine 131, well below the tolerable limit for food and drink of 300 becquerals per kg, the government added."

(I lost the news report..)

Anybody know what a typical reading was in Tokyo water BEFORE all the nuclear "meltdown" hype?

From what I remember (have to check) this was the first time ever that radioactive iodine was detected in tap water Edit: in tap water in Tokyo since testing began in 1990. (Before = 0)

 

[swimmer]

Drinking water sample reading in Tokyo:

"The sample contained 1.5 becquerals per kg of iodine 131, well below the tolerable limit for food and drink of 300 becquerals per kg, the government added."

(I lost the news report..)

Anybody know what a typical reading was in Tokyo water BEFORE all the nuclear "meltdown" hype?

Can't find Tokyo detection records. The 'detected for the first time since testing began in 1990' is apparently in Gunma. Read here:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110320p2g00m0dm023000c.html"
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79683.html"

Whatever the levels before, the most recent data matter most. My advice would be: stay away from the tap water.

 

[AntonL]

Drinking water sample reading in Tokyo:

"The sample contained 1.5 becquerals per kg of iodine 131, well below the tolerable limit for food and drink of 300 becquerals per kg, the government added."

I would like to see the officials face when asking him to drink a litre of water with 300 becquerals per kg. (I would feel very uncomfortable like longterm Russian roulette.)

In Canada 6 Bq/L are allowed, check http://www.env.gov.nl.ca/env/waterres/regulations/policies/water_quality.html"

In summary the Canadian limits are and we know that 1L = 1kg
Cesium-134 7 Bq/L
Cesium-137 10 Bq/L
Iodine-125 10 Bq/L
Iodine-131 6 Bq/L
Molydenum-99 70 Bq/L
Strontium-90 5 Bq/L
Tritium 7,000 Bq/L

 

[Maxion]

Heh 1 Bq is nothing. Your own body is "radioactive" to the amount of thousands of Bq.

The water is NOT dangerous.

 

[Astronuc]

Just a plea to all contributing to this excellent thread to pls keep posting until we are through this and situation is stabilized with some confidence. The combination of expertise, sheer detail, and sharp questions is my reality check. Thanks especially to Astronuc, of course, but also to e.g. TCups for sticking to guns -- as well as others who reason knowledgeably for or against various speculations. And to swimmer for the NHK links. It's all most helpful.

Brief background: Am using info here and elsewhere to try to help 3 families in Tokyo decide what moves to make, if any. One father has already moved his family (wife & 2 kids) down to Ehime prefecture on Shikoku, a decision he made early on before input from me. He's desperate to move them out of the country altogether, but can't. Another with family I haven't heard from since 14th, so I assume he's also left Tokyo and can't get to a computer. The third is teacher of a well-known young pianist who has 3 recitals imminent in Japan and then another at the Japan Festival in New York April 3rd, so they have little option but to stay with the pianos in Tokyo!

A cousin of mine plus (Japanese) family fled Japan Tuesday on a flight booked last year. They are so relieved to be out. Ironically they were worried about the predicted Great Tokai quake, supposed to be coming in the south. This quake in the north was apparently quite unexpected.

So, please keep posting. It's potentially a lifeline, and much appreciated.

I'm hoping to go to Fukushima Daiichi, or as close as allowed, as soon as feasible.

 

[TCups]

On the live feed, it was just confirmed that there were high-level radioactive debris on the ground around unit 4 hampering the efforts to spray water on the reactors and SFP. Tanks with bulldozer blades are to be used to clear the debris to make access possible. If the reactor cores are intact and the radiation released was only from vented steam, I wouldn't expect high-level debris requiring shielded metal tanks to remove them to be necessary. This sounds more like the contents of the SFPs may be scattered about, does it not?

What other high level debris might be scattered by explosions that spared the reactor cores other than spent fuel rods?

 

[AntonL]

Heh 1 Bq is nothing. Your own body is "radioactive" to the amount of thousands of Bq.

Yes evenly distributed over your 80 Kg and not concentrated at one spot in your pancreas!

 

[2ndResponder]

It is reported that 40 tonnes of sea water have been pumped into the spent fuel pool of reactor unit 2.

NHK also reports of very high radioactive debris lying around reactors 3 and 4.

A military tank (as in war) will now be deployed to bulldoze the area and shift this debris, the thick armor plating hopefully shielding the operator from the radiation.

What's with the "hopefully shielding"?

In the large scale of things it's a small percent, but I still don't understand why machines with humans inside them are being used instead of remotely-operated equipment. Are people that much cheaper than robots? Or, to be totally financial, are people (after health care and burial costs) that much cheaper than robots? Or are there simply no such robots -- in which case, isn't it a "lesson learned" that it's time to fund development of them?

 

[swimmer]

Heh 1 Bq is nothing. Your own body is "radioactive" to the amount of thousands of Bq.

The water is NOT dangerous.

Correct, the water itself is safe.

The radioactive isotope I-131 in your water is dangerous, especially in low doses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine-131"

 

[2ndResponder]

On a very pragmatic incident management angle, lack of a ready supply of affordable, disposable (if need-be) remotely-controlled eyes and hands seems very likely to have contributed to an otherwise needless delay in determining what's going on. That's both dangerous and, in the long-run, probably much more expensive than the servo-robots would be.

 

[swimmer]

I'm hoping to go to Fukushima Daiichi, or as close as allowed, as soon as feasible.

Wow, really? To assist?

 

[Astronuc]

Wow, really? To assist?

I'm anxious to analyze the cores and fuel behavior, and fuel from SFPs.

 

[AntonL]

I'm hoping to go to Fukushima Daiichi, or as close as allowed, as soon as feasible.

Your luggage will be very heavy with radiation free food and bottled water

Fukushima residence have been advised not to drink tap water!

 

[TCups]

On the live feed, it was just confirmed that there were high-level radioactive debris on the ground around unit 4 hampering the efforts to spray water on the reactors and SFP. Tanks with bulldozer blades are to be used to clear the debris to make access possible. If the reactor cores are intact and the radiation released was only from vented steam, I wouldn't expect high-level debris requiring shielded metal tanks to remove them to be necessary. This sounds more like the contents of the SFPs may be scattered about, does it not?

What other high level debris might be scattered by explosions that spared the reactor cores other than spent fuel rods?

The helicopter fly over spent a lot of time looking at this debris field and at something on the top of this building. Curious.

What sort of blast might scatter spent fuel rods out of a SFP? One venting through the channel between the SFP and the reactor containment?

Astronuc: I hope you make it -- God speed and take care. Be sure to take a laptop and check in with us. Anyone else from your team likely to make the trip?

 

[swimmer]

I'm anxious to analyze the cores and fuel behavior, and fuel from SFPs.

I can imagine. Also, to me it seems quite an overwhelming amount of cores and fuel rods to study. Lots of work to be done, lots of benefit to be gained from those willing and able to do the work.

 

[Reno Deano]

How does Iodine get into tap water so quickly? Most drinking water system facilities have been shut down by the earthquake and Tsunami. Also, most domestic drinking water supplies are a relatively closed system with many types of filtration systems, including final carbon beds, which would filter out the Iodine. Sounds fishy to me. Everyone probably went to bottled water following the Tsunami and destruction.