Exploring Sexism in Society: A French Film

[Ripley]

I was sent a link to this short French film earlier today, although it doesn't go into all the details of issues I have faced in the past I found it interesting.

http://www.upworthy.com/a-french-film-showing-men-what-being-a-woman-feels-like-kinda?g=2&c=reccon1


Most of the sexism I encounter is rather casual, ie girls don't study maths/physics or don't like sci-fi. Being single I have often met men how have asked me out on dates and then lauched into a speech about how they'll look after me!

 

[lendav_rott]

I couldn't get a job some years ago due to sexism - there were 2 candidates left for a spot and the girl got it, because she had dressed quite challengingly that day. Open decollete, heavy make up..you get the picture. It was a spot for a car workshop reception desk (the funniest bit about it is she didn't know much about cars and got a job doing something that requires quite a bit of general knowledge about cars and mechanics ). Other than that, those who want sexism to be a big deal, let them have it - I personally don't care.

 

[WannabeNewton]

My school is filled with extremist feminists. They scare the living hell out of me, not to mention their blatant hypocrisy takes away all of their credibility. The extremist feminists give the moderate, sensible ones a really bad name-you know, the class of feminists who actually get things done. Upworthy is filled with the former, not the latter.

 

[Ripley]

I can't say I've heard of upworthy before today and I haven't looked at anything else on the site.

I have friends who believe in the fallacy of it's us against them. They are so wrapped up in the hatred they've acquired from feeling discriminated against that they fail to see that sexism against men and woman are not mutually exclusive. The bigger picture is far more complicated than any film or post could ever depict. Role models for both genders in the media are detrimental for children's self-esteem and morals. It seems that young people are encouraged to become caricatures; boys being athletic, arrogant, emotionally inept and girls being attractive, dumb and submissive. I have helped in a local school and girls at the age of 7 are shaving their legs and copying rihannas dance moves from some disgusting music video.

Positive discrimination undermines everything I believe in. I have toyed with the idea of joining the military after uni and wasn't impressed that the fitness test requirements are lower for women. I personally will be meeting the male targets if i do decide on that career path!

 

[WannabeNewton]

I can't say I've heard of upworthy before today and I haven't looked at anything else on the site.

I would avoid using it as with anything that is extremist. I consider myself a liberal but upworthy's over the top "liberalism" makes me cringe.

It seems that young people are encouraged to become caricatures; boys being athletic, arrogant, emotionally inept and girls being attractive, dumb and submissive.

Through the entertainment industry such encouragement has certainly been disseminated but I can't say I've ever come across encouragement of this kind outside of the entertainment medium. That's not to say such encouragement doesn't exist in every day life but it probably exists in a societal sphere which I do not belong to. No guy I know cares even the slightest about athleticism to the point of self-definition and no girl I know tries to be "dumb and submissive" nor does anyone force them to be.

Positive discrimination undermines everything I believe in.

And it is but one facet of the disgusting levels of political correctness forced down the throats of modern American society that pisses me off-if only George Carlin were alive today.

 

[wukunlin]

In Auckland uni, girls who study postgraduate physics are not seen as unusual. The gender ratio is still disproportionate though...

 

[Drakkith]

Positive discrimination undermines everything I believe in. I have toyed with the idea of joining the military after uni and wasn't impressed that the fitness test requirements are lower for women. I personally will be meeting the male targets if i do decide on that career path!

May I ask why you have an issue with the physical fitness standards being different between men and women?

 

[russ_watters]

May I ask why you have an issue with the physical fitness standards being different between men and women?

The US Marine Corps is having significant problems with this issue:

More than half of female Marines in boot camp can't do three pull-ups, the minimum standard that was supposed to take effect with the new year, prompting the Marine Corps to delay the requirement, part of the process of equalizing physical standards to integrate women into combat jobs.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ale-fitness-plan-after-half-fail-pullup-test/

 

[HomogenousCow]

Almost every characteristic of a person has some kind of associated form of discrimination these days, quite alarming really.
People are not the same, and there shouldn't be any offense in pointing this out. People of different races are different and so are men and women.

 

[Ripley]

May I ask why you have an issue with the physical fitness standards being different between men and women?

Ultimately both genders will be doing the same job and if called into combat they will be carrying the same weight, using the same rifles and covering the same distances. The fitness tests should reflect this.

 

[Drakkith]

Ultimately both genders will be doing the same job and if called into combat they will be carrying the same weight, using the same rifles and covering the same distances. The fitness tests should reflect this.

I agree that both men and women should be physically capable of doing their job. But, being in the Air Force for 12 years now, I can tell you that a general fitness test that is applied to everyone in their branch of service has no reason to be the same for both men and women. A woman in finance or vehicle maintenance has no reason to be held to the same standards as men when her job doesn't require her to be physically fit. I cringe when I think about how many women would fail their PT test if it were to be upped to what I have to do.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I agree that both men and women should be physically capable of doing their job. But, being in the Air Force for 12 years now, I can tell you that a general fitness test that is applied to everyone in their branch of service has no reason to be the same for both men and women. A woman in finance or vehicle maintenance has no reason to be held to the same standards as men when her job doesn't require her to be physically fit. I cringe when I think about how many women would fail their PT test if it were to be upped to what I have to do.

Perhaps this shows my ignorance about the US military, but shouldn't a fitness test be based on what specific activities or roles/jobs within the military that the individual (male or female) be engaged in? After all, I would presume that a front-line soldier in the US Army or a Marine Special Forces officer will have a very different set of fitness requirements compared to an engineer working in the US Navy or Air Force.

(As an aside, there seems to be this underlying assumption that women are less physically fit than men, which is very far from the case).

 

[Bandersnatch]

(As an aside, there seems to be this underlying assumption that women are less physically fit than men, which is very far from the case).

Are you saying there's no strength-related sexual dimorphism in humans?

 

[StatGuy2000]

Are you saying there's no strength-related sexual dimorphism in humans?

That's not what I'm saying at all -- there is evidence of strength-related and size-related sexual dimorphism in humans. What I am questioning is the (unspoken) assumption that women are less physically fit than men, and therefore may be less likely to succeed in the military.

For example, russ_waters pulls a comment from Fox News stating that more than half of female Marines in boot camp cannot do 3 pull-ups. What is not stated is how many of the male Marines in boot camp cannot do 3 pull-ups. So I'm curious if somehow many of those in boot camp are simply not meeting the basic physical requirements.

Also, there are many different types of combat roles in the various branches of the US military, probably with different requirements for physical fitness in each of them. Does one-size-fits-all fitness tests really measure how physically ready the candidates are in each of those roles?

 

[Ripley]

I agree that both men and women should be physically capable of doing their job. But, being in the Air Force for 12 years now, I can tell you that a general fitness test that is applied to everyone in their branch of service has no reason to be the same for both men and women. A woman in finance or vehicle maintenance has no reason to be held to the same standards as men when her job doesn't require her to be physically fit. I cringe when I think about how many women would fail their PT test if it were to be upped to what I have to do.

I am currently working on an raf base as a civilian. Men and women in the same trade still have different fitness level requirements and surely if you are first and foremost a soldier then you need to be fit enough to be called upon at any given time? From what I've witnessed the raf are far too lenient with any employee (regardless of gender) who reguarly fails fitness tests but that is off topic.

 

[Drakkith]

Perhaps this shows my ignorance about the US military, but shouldn't a fitness test be based on what specific activities or roles/jobs within the military that the individual (male or female) be engaged in? After all, I would presume that a front-line soldier in the US Army or a Marine Special Forces officer will have a very different set of fitness requirements compared to an engineer working in the US Navy or Air Force.

The Air Force physical fitness requirements apply to nearly everyone, no matter the career field. The only exceptions are jobs like special forces or fighter pilots, who must meet a higher/different fitness standard than the rest of us. So for about 99% of the Air Force the fitness requirements are identical. (Other than gender differences)

(As an aside, there seems to be this underlying assumption that women are less physically fit than men, which is very far from the case).

It's not that they are less physically fit, it's that they have less physical strength on average, especially in the upper body, along with some other differences such as different center of mass, differently shaped hips, less muscle mass per body weight, etc.

Also, there are many different types of combat roles in the various branches of the US military, probably with different requirements for physical fitness in each of them. Does one-size-fits-all fitness tests really measure how physically ready the candidates are in each of those roles?

No, but most specialized combat units have different requirements than other units, and these requirements are typically more stringent.

I am currently working on an raf base as a civilian. Men and women in the same trade still have different fitness level requirements and surely if you are first and foremost a soldier then you need to be fit enough to be called upon at any given time?

I'm a maintainer in the Air Force. There are certain physical requirements, such as the ability to lift 40 pounds above your head, that everyone must meet. But that isn't a measure of fitness. It's just a physical requirement. Women may be held to different physical standards than Men, but in my job, and in the majority of jobs in the AF, that level of fitness isn't even necessary to perform your job adequately.

I certainly agree that some sort of standards for PT need to be in place, as exercise is generally healthy when done correctly, but I see no reason for women to have the same standards as men when it would drastically increase the amount of stress people already experience in regards to the PT test. The pro's don't outweigh the con's in my opinion.

 

[Evo]

Wouldn't push ups be be more geared toward men? Not only is it a fact that women have less upper body strength, but if you have large breasts, not only is it like having weights strapped to your chest, it throws you off.

Sorry, this is hijacking the thread.

Back to the thread topic.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Male Marines only have to be able to do three pull-ups? Now our enemies just need to build four walls in a row and we're screwed!

The thread was hijacked right away (in a very predictable way, too), so I don't feel too bad.

 

[Nikitin]

This video is stupid. I watched the first 2 minutes. Mainly, all they do is reverse social norms on the head so it looks weird (as well pretend 60's era male-sexism is common today). So their point is social norms shouldn't exist? sigh

It seems to me allot of these modern feminists are championing for equality in every part of society. Meaning; a 50-50 distribution in jobs and education, removal of any form of sex roles and that all men and women should act like their sex is irrelevant. Basically that masculinity and femininity are evils created by a male-dominated society to oppress women.

Really, people are forgetting what feminism really is about; equal respect and free choice to live as one likes. It's not about forcing "equality" down everybody's throats. Though don't get me wrong, I'm all for exposing sexism and double standards in the work-place/education and so on.

Wouldn't push ups be be more geared toward men? Not only is it a fact that women have less upper body strength, but if you have large breasts, not only is it like having weights strapped to your chest, it throws you off.

I think the fact that an average women weigh 1/3 less than an average male more than compensates. Besides, a soldier needs to be able to climb obstacles, sprint for cover and so on regardless of how unbalancing her breats are.
Infantrists must be able to carry 20kg+ of equipment for days in all manners of terrain, while remaining in combat-ready shape. For this the vast majority of women simply do not have the required physique, and thus have no place on the front lines.

 

[Evo]

For this the vast majority of women simply do not have the required physique, and thus have no place on the front lines.

There are physical differences and it's just ridiculous for a woman to expect to be the same as a man. It's not discrimination, that's just the way it is.

 

[StatGuy2000]

At the risk of hijacking this thread even further, I want to put this question out there. Are there any statistics on the gender breakdown of the different branches of the US armed forces (Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, Coast Guard)? And are there statistics describing the gender breakdown in the type of roles they engage in within each of the branches of the armed forces (outside of front line combat)?

 

[lendav_rott]

When I served time there was a girl in our division, in espionage. Happened to talk to her about it and she said she loves it and loves the load (drill exercises, physical exercises, field exercises) - she is somewhat of a military fanatic, but still, she was cut no slack because she was a woman and neither did she ask for any.

 

[Monique]

There are physical differences and it's just ridiculous for a woman to expect to be the same as a man. It's not discrimination, that's just the way it is.

If certain strength/endurance is needed for a job, men and women should be treated equally. Women are much better represented in the marine compared to land forces, this is logical.

 

[Tobias Funke]

If certain strength/endurance is needed for a job, men and women should be treated equally.

Isn't that what's happening? That Fox link, which is shockingly rational compared to some other posts, seems to imply that women who can't fulfil the physical requirements won't be allowed in combat. It also says they can choose other tests to pass their physicals, so I assume that just passing the physical doesn't allow them in combat; the details aren't clear to me.

This thread is just nonsense at this point, but it is fun to go down the checklist of canned responses in this type of thread (I count at least five, some by multiple people). What are we even talking about? What is being crammed/forced down my throat besides that women would like to be treated equally? and yes, in every part of society? How is that extremist outside of a ridiculously distorted strawman argument? (oh god, I even know the answers I might get if anyone bothers, and they're just more of the same distortions) It's just that that makes about the 241st thing being crammed down there and I just don't know if it can take any more!

 

[Evo]

If certain strength/endurance is needed for a job, men and women should be treated equally. Women are much better represented in the marine compared to land forces, this is logical.

Yes, they are allowed if they can meet the requirements.

Earlier this year, the Pentagon lifted the ban on women serving in U.S. combat units – including elite special-operations units like the Navy’s SEALs – if they can clear the physical and mental hurdles. While official Washington has saluted and moved on to other matters, there remains a rumble of opposition, especially evident when chatting with soldiers and Marines. Some argue that the existing standards – which already have kept several women from passing the Marines’ grueling infantry officers course – will basically act as a bar to women in the more demanding kinds of combat.

http://nation.time.com/2013/07/25/the-cowardly-push-to-get-women-into-combat/

The article is complaining that the bar might be lowered for women. I just really wanted to link the paragraph I quoted, not the complaints.

 

[Monique]

Oh ok, I guess I misunderstood. So we agree

 

[Evo]

Oh ok, I guess I misunderstood. So we agree

Yes.

 

[WannabeNewton]

This video is stupid.

As are much of upworthy's videos: they are laughably stupid. They're just extremists at work so don't pay heed to them. Moderate feminists don't get nearly as much publicity, for obvious reasons, and so they get a bad rap because of the nutjobs advertised by upworthy, which is unfortunate. That is to say: not all "modern" feminists are like the ones publicized by upworthy and the likes-they don't take the notion of sexism and bend/twist it to extreme; all of the self-proclaimed feminists I know of are moderate and I would be surprised if the same was not true globally. As with any social group you will have a small group of radicals in the fringe that get most of the publicity and end up giving the entire group a bad name. In other words not all "modern" feminists go around championing absolute nonsense like:

Meaning; a 50-50 distribution in jobs and education, removal of any form of sex roles and that all men and women should act like their sex is irrelevant. Basically that masculinity and femininity are evils created by a male-dominated society to oppress women.

 

[jobyts]

There are physical differences and it's just ridiculous for a woman to expect to be the same as a man. It's not discrimination, that's just the way it is.

I agree. Sometime back, I remember there was a discussion between JimmySynder and LisaB on the male-female equality. Jimmy could easily write his full name on the sand with a single pee. Even with a shorter name, LisaB could not do it without all those footprints.

 

[Lavabug]

The US Marine Corps is having significant problems with this issue:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ale-fitness-plan-after-half-fail-pullup-test/

Wow I am very surprised about this, I didn't expect the bar for physical fitness to be that low for women. Granted I didn't know what the baseline requirements for marines were but I thought they'd be roughly the same for both sexes going into combat for obvious reasons.

Wouldn't push ups be be more geared toward men? Not only is it a fact that women have less upper body strength, but if you have large breasts, not only is it like having weights strapped to your chest, it throws you off.

I don't think so, women have overall lower body weight so that might compensate. Lower body weight helps immensely with the pull ups, a 5-10lb. difference could be the difference between doing 6 or doing 10 pullups. Also, I've seen countless teenage female athletes in the sub-50kg/110lb. category do some amazing feats of functional strength that would embarrass even 200lb.+ adult males that brag about their gym strength! So I think there's little reason to lower the bar for fitness in a military situation, especially since the consequences of not meeting it could put them at a very dangerous disadvantage in their job... With cardiovascular endurance, I don't think either sex has an advantage over the other. If anything, females might have it.

As far as sexism in STEM academics goes, I've only heard some -promptly retracted- borderline sexist comments from a very senior prof once. Amongst classmates in physics and math, never. Tt probably helps that physics at my school was roughly 50/50 m/f and mathematics was about 20/80 m/f. From non-STEM people IME, it seems like the stereotype of 'women can't do math/physics' is very very pervasive, unfortunately, although nobody dares to say it out loud nowadays. I come from a traditionally conservative and sexist country (Spain).

Edit> The first thing that came to mind when I saw the OP's name was Lt. Ripley from Alien, what a badass.
http://www.empireonline.com/images/features/100greatestcharacters/photos/9.jpg

 

[256bits]

Being single I have often met men how have asked me out on dates and then lauched into a speech about how they'll look after me!

I imagine it worked once before, or he heard that it works, and being creatures of habit and of perhaps of one track goal seeking, that type of guy may disregard, or not treat to a proper respect, any other credentials a woman might have, and his presentation of the hypothetical presumption that all women desire to be kept, builds an intrigue, as a way of getting into her pants soon, or later, at the females discretion. At that particular time, if the female is of that persuasion then .. , if not, then ...

Not to say that the guy is any of a lessor or greater model of the male species, but I do think that it is more of an ingrained sexual response thing - males wanting to show how great they are, and females wanting to choose the best out of the bunch - which can appear as being behavior of a sexist nature.

 

[OmCheeto]

Almost every characteristic of a person has some kind of associated form of discrimination these days, quite alarming really.
People are not the same, and there shouldn't be any offense in pointing this out. People of different races are different and so are men and women.

Had a change of heart, have you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVygqjyS4CA

Sorry, but your name, and your comment, made it almost impossible for me to read the rest of the comments in the thread. But I did.
(pat on back, pat on back)

ps. Being old enough to have lived through the transition from a male dominated society, to a more gender neutral society, I can only say, we've come a long way, babies.

 

[Evo]

I imagine it worked once before, or he heard that it works, and being creatures of habit and of perhaps of one track goal seeking, that type of guy may disregard, or not treat to a proper respect, any other credentials a woman might have, and his presentation of the hypothetical presumption that all women desire to be kept, builds an intrigue, as a way of getting into her pants soon, or later, at the females discretion. At that particular time, if the female is of that persuasion then .. , if not, then ...

Not to say that the guy is any of a lessor or greater model of the male species, but I do think that it is more of an ingrained sexual response thing - males wanting to show how great they are, and females wanting to choose the best out of the bunch - which can appear as being behavior of a sexist nature.

It could be that the men were raised to believe that it was the man's role to be the provider and protector. I have seen this in families I've known, and it's meant as a sign of respect for the woman and responsibility on the man's part. It goes back to "old" thinking where the woman may be pregnant, or caring for children, or that men were normally more physically capable due to hunting and good men protected and provided for their women. Nowadays, many women take offense at what was once a desirable trait.

 

[OmCheeto]

...
Edit> The first thing that came to mind when I saw the OP's name was Lt. Ripley from Alien, what a badass.
http://www.empireonline.com/images/features/100greatestcharacters/photos/9.jpg

Having been raised, along with my six siblings, by a single mom, I can only imagine that this is why we can all relate with Lt. Ripley.

Like Evo said, some people were raised sexist, and others, weren't.

ps. For the record, I love Upworthy. They're a bit young, and hence, a bit naive*, but they have good souls. Nothing that I would hold against anyone.

*na·ive
nīˈēv
adjective
1. (of a person or action) showing a lack of experience...

 

[Evo]

No, I just mentioned the men that weren't raised sexist, but are misunderstood to be sexist.