- #141
zomgwtf
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Max Faust said:Wouldn't it be best to get the *bleep* out of Afghanistan, the sooner the better?
All these years and all that waste of money and life - and achieving funk-all. Nada. Zip. Zilch. NOTHING!
Errr, sources?
Max Faust said:Wouldn't it be best to get the *bleep* out of Afghanistan, the sooner the better?
All these years and all that waste of money and life - and achieving funk-all. Nada. Zip. Zilch. NOTHING!
Max Faust said:Wouldn't it be best to get the *bleep* out of Afghanistan, the sooner the better?
All these years and all that waste of money and life - and achieving funk-all. Nada. Zip. Zilch. NOTHING!
So have a security force consisting of the ruling tribe 'A' large enough to overwhelm the civilians of tribe 'B' who you assume are all suspected terrorists.Getting to 600,000 is daunting but not impossible; Iraq has done it. However the real size of the immediate requirement is smaller because the insurgency is concentrated among the Pashtuns who form half the population, or roughly 15 million people. If you apply the ratio to Pashtuns only, you get a requirement of 300,000 security personnel. That's more in the ballpark of what American and Afghan resources can provide in the near future.
MotoH said:the progress in Marjah, or the 50+ top Taliban leaders captured
But most of the people it kills are Russians so we win.Max Faust said:the only real change that has happened in Afghanistan since 2001 is that they are now the world's number one heroin manufacturer again. Good job!
mgb_phys said:85% of Afghanistan's heroin is exported to Iran
jreelawg said:the worlds prescription heroine
Please don't derail this two year old thread..Max Faust said:Wouldn't it be best to get the *bleep* out of Afghanistan, the sooner the better?
All these years and all that waste of money and life - and achieving funk-all. Nada. Zip. Zilch. NOTHING!
Visibly counter-insurgency worked in Iraq. You know this. Why the counter factual sarcasm?mgb_phys said:So have a security force consisting of the ruling tribe 'A' large enough to overwhelm the civilians of tribe 'B' who you assume are all suspected terrorists.
Then resolve to get tough and crush the terrorists and all the other things you promise before elections - worked out well everywhere else it's been done.
Strawman, again which you know.mgb_phys said:I had forgotten Shia and Sunni were now iving in harmony in Iraq -
Massive civil war? Source. I insist.I thought there was a massive civil war between terrorists and government death squads with a large US/UK/Canadian force stuck in the middle desperately trying not to get caught in the cross fire.
Nothing new. There is a similar problem in Pakistan.The corruption that is already rampant in the Karzai government could also be amplified by the new wealth, particularly if a handful of well-connected oligarchs, some with personal ties to the president, gain control of the resources. Just last year, Afghanistan’s minister of mines was accused by American officials of accepting a $30 million bribe to award China the rights to develop its copper mine. The minister has since been replaced.
Endless fights could erupt between the central government in Kabul and provincial and tribal leaders in mineral-rich districts. Afghanistan has a national mining law, written with the help of advisers from the World Bank, but it has never faced a serious challenge.
. . . .
Junger:
I've been going to Afghanistan since 1996. It's a country I really care about. I was there in the 90s; it was a bloodbath. If NATO pulls out it is going to go back to that. That is a very, very painful thought for me to contemplate.
[...]
There was a civil war in Afghanistan in 90s that was stopped by the topping of the Taliban after 911. So, the level of suffering of the civilian population, now, is greatly reduced compared to what its been for the last 20 years in that country. I don't think the Afghans are particularly fond of the Americans, who wants to have foreign troops in their country. But, I think most of them are pretty terrified of the prospects if the world pulls out. [...]
Host:
Fouad Ajami, Middle East expert at JHU, supporter of the Iraq war [states ] Not a supporter of the Afghan war. Point number one that he made, is that, there is no Afghanistan to put back together. The idea that that it was a normal country is false: different regions, different tribes, you have overlays of tribal conflict with black markets, with different, effectively, war chieftains. How do you respond to that? [..]
Junger:
He's totally wrong. [...] That's totally wrong. Kabul was the location of the best medical school in all of Asia in the 70s', before the Soviets came in and destroyed that country and then triggered a civil war that is essentially still going on. The hippy trail went through Afghanistan, it was a place that many many western visitors went, there were museums, there were ancient monuments that tourists would go to. I mean, it wasn't unified in the sense that the US is unified, but that doesn't mean it was in conflict. It was stable for a decade. [...] It functioned.
There's tribes, there's nomads, there are all kinds of scenes right out the bible. [...] But it was a functioning country. And it was peaceful enough that people went there in the 60s and 70s regularly. It was a real tourist destination. The soviet invasion ruined that, and now the country is trying to put itself back together.
[...]
The Western world figured out how to drive the German Army out of Europe. They did D-Day. They swept France and pushed the Germans back into Germany. If they can do that, there's something like ten or twenty thousand Taliban fighters, essentially barefoot in the mountains with AKs, they [the West] can probably figure out how to win that fight. I think the problem is not a military one in Afghanistan, I think it is a political problem in the countries of Europe and the US. [...]
[...]
Every country in Europe has been attacked or has had a near miss from Al'Qaeda. Madrid , London, Holland, Italy. [...] I think the world needs to understand that the chaos and violence of Afghanistan can reach out to touch them - in the future, in a year, in ten years. It was a rogue state, it was a perfect refuge for an organization like AQ. There were no extradition treaties. [...] And, if we go back to the 90s, we may risk going back to 911
Astronuc said:Well - this is not news. It's been know for quite some time that there are huge untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan and also Baluchistan (Pakistan). Afghanistan sits astride the Tethyan Metallogenic Belt.
U.S. Identifies Vast Riches of Minerals in Afghanistan
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html
By JAMES RISEN
But as more nations/corporations realize this, it raises the stakes on Afghanistan - and the Great Game continues with more :uhh:
Nothing new. There is a similar problem in Pakistan.
The Taliban didn't exist as any kind of organization during the Soviet occupation. Mullah Omar, the Taliban founder, undertook his first reported military action as leader in 1994. Most US assistance during the Soviet occupation went to the Mujahideen, notably highly successful anti-Soviet fighters like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Shah_Massoud" [Broken], who was later assassinated by AQ and the Taliban as part of the Afghan civil war, two days before 911.BobG said:[...] People like to point out the US folly in assisting the Taliban when the Soviets were controlling Afghanistan, but it went further than just being anti-Soviet.
arildno said:Since I don't think material riches in any way causes a good society (although a good society might be better able to generate such riches), I don't see anything positive about the vast mineral resources in Afghanistan.
We just might get ourselves a new, extremely rich country, run along the same principle as, say,..Saudi-Arabia.
Yes apparently the monarchy period under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Zahir_Shah" [Broken] has seen the most stability in modern times, running the country intact and moving up for some forty years.arildno said:We just might get ourselves a new, extremely rich country, run along the same principle as, say,..Saudi-Arabia.
Proton Soup said:i think SA is something of a special case, being home to Mecca. there is an issue there of keeping up appearances, lest one become the target of a holy war.
Max Faust said:We must have quite different standards for what constitutes a military achievement then.
You can spend five hundred frakkin' years in Afghanistan and still achieve nothing. Sure, you can blow up some houses and kill some rugged goat-herders here and there but the only real change that has happened in Afghanistan since 2001 is that they are now the world's number one heroin manufacturer again. Good job!
rmalik said:Regarding the opium, there has been a new found "natural" virus that has infected opium farms in Afghanistan. Farmers would collect around 140 kg of opium, now get only 14 kg of opium from their harvest. They blame International Forces and US for spraying crops with chemicals, although they deny those claims. lol
The natural resources figure was a little optimistic - that's the value of the metals in the ground IF/WHEN you could get them to a market.rmalik said:For the hundredth time we were told about Afghanistan's vast supply of natural resources amounting to over $1 trillion US.
Sadly this June is now the worst month ever in the Afghanistan war for US fatalities, and I believe for coalition fatalities as a whole.mheslep said:This summer looks to be much harder than previous summers for troops in Afghanistan.
June 2010 - [STRIKE]41[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]43[/STRIKE] 47 US fatalities (as of June 25)
jreelawg said:I wonder, how they found these resources? It doesn't make sense to me that we wouldn't have known about this much earlier.
Does anyone know what about this particular find made it so illusive, and what methods were used to make the discovery.
It's actually a number of finds. Various entities have been prospecting in Afghanistan, and it's only recently that the US has put the information together. BHP and Rio Tinto, and others have been looking into the area, and at deposits in Baluchistan. Baluchistan is better known, because that was more accessible. However, Baluchistan have proved problematic since there are groups who are trying to push greater autonomy from the rest of Pakistan.jreelawg said:I wonder, how they found these resources? It doesn't make sense to me that we wouldn't have known about this much earlier.
Does anyone know what about this particular find made it so illusive, and what methods were used to make the discovery.
Astronuc said:Petraeus says Taliban making 'overtures' for peace
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100928/wl_afp/afghanistanunrestustalibanpetraeus [Broken]
Perhaps a sign that the tide is slowly turning.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R40764.pdf" [Broken]Contractors make up 54% of DOD’s workforce in Iraq and Afghanistan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/world/middleeast/24contractors.html?_r=1&ref=world"Even now — with many contractors discredited for unjustified shootings and a lack of accountability amply described in the documents — the military cannot do without them. There are more contractors over all than actual members of the military serving in the worsening war in Afghanistan.
The archive, which describes many episodes never made public in such detail, shows the multitude of shortcomings with this new system: how a failure to coordinate among contractors, coalition forces and Iraqi troops, as well as a failure to enforce rules of engagement that bind the military, endangered civilians as well as the contractors themselves. The military was often outright hostile to contractors, for being amateurish, overpaid and, often, trigger-happy.
Contractors often shot with little discrimination — and few if any consequences — at unarmed Iraqi civilians, Iraqi security forces, American troops and even other contractors, stirring public outrage and undermining much of what the coalition forces were sent to accomplish.
Astronuc said:Petraeus says Taliban making 'overtures' for peace
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100928/wl_afp/afghanistanunrestustalibanpetraeus [Broken]
Perhaps a sign that the tide is slowly turning.
After 6 years of war, there have been some significant improvements in Afghanistan. The country now has a democratically elected government, and the economy has grown by over 3% annually. Additionally, there has been an increase in access to education and healthcare for the Afghan people.
The security situation in Afghanistan has seen some improvements, but it remains a major concern. While the Taliban has been weakened, they still pose a threat to the stability of the country. The Afghan National Security Forces have also made progress in taking over security responsibilities, but they still rely heavily on support from international forces.
Afghanistan still faces many challenges in the future, including ongoing security concerns, corruption, and a weak economy. The country is also vulnerable to natural disasters, such as droughts and earthquakes. Additionally, the Afghan government will need to address issues of human rights and women's rights.
The international community has played a significant role in the progress of Afghanistan. They have provided financial aid, security assistance, and support for infrastructure development. However, there have also been criticisms of the international community's involvement, such as concerns over civilian casualties and the effectiveness of aid programs.
To ensure continued progress in Afghanistan, there needs to be a focus on long-term stability and development. This includes addressing issues of corruption, improving the economy, and investing in education and infrastructure. Additionally, there needs to be a coordinated effort between the Afghan government and the international community to address security concerns and promote peace and reconciliation.