- #141
Evo
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
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Obama has not said what he plans in this regard. This plan was proposed in 2002, it's not new, how does this "turn the table upside down"?
Obama's advisor to the ME denies it.AhmedEzz said:Obama did say what said and the reference is up there...the plan was introduced in 2002 and re-introduced in 2007. This is critical because all of those who claimed that Arabs are not interested in peace obviously never heard about this...Again don't just blindingly defend Israel, its not healthy :)
Senior Obama Mideast adviser Dennis Ross flatly denied the Times report, which quoted a source close to Obama stating that the president-elect intends to throw his support behind the Arab plan.
http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/other-views/frida-ghitis/story/790522.htmlSen Obama said:''If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night,'' Obama said, ``I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.''
The right-wing Israelis ... scattered rocket attacks? I suppose that appraisal is understandable given the recent front page pictures of victims of the Israeli attacks, and rarely a mention of the almost daily rocket attacks on Israel in the international press. Since 2001, there have been 3708 rocket attacks, and 3942 mortar attacks, according to the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Other sources site similar numbers.turbo-1 said:...The right-wing Israelis point to scattered rocket attacks from Gaza that might have killed 15-20 people over a number of months. ...
AhmedEzz said:I can't believe the amount of BS in this post...really. Get your facts straight before making such luminous claims about Islam, which I am sure you know nothing of.
To refrain myself from being warned by replying harshly to your post, I will make one statement which will turn the table upside down.
The Arab Peace Initiative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative"
from your own reference and summarizes my point"More than 17 missiles were directed at an empty government compound, without regard for civilians who lived nearby," Koraz said. "We are people who live in peace and want to live in peace. If someone committed a crime, they should go after him, not after an entire nation."
AhmedEzz said:I can't believe the amount of BS in this post...really. Get your facts straight before making such luminous claims about Islam, which I am sure you know nothing of.
To refrain myself from being warned by replying harshly to your post, I will make one statement which will turn the table upside down.
The Arab Peace Initiative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative"
AhmedEzz said:from your own reference and summarizes my point
AhmedEzz said:from your own reference and summarizes my point
"More than 17 missiles were directed at an empty government compound, without regard for civilians who lived nearby,"
Phrak said:The arab nations … are interested in the elimination of Isreal as a Jewish state. …
Art said:There's a slight difference. If the UK or the US declared itself a Christian state for Christians then I imagine members of minority religions would feel rather threatened.
A major stumbling block in the recognition of Israel by the PLO is Israel's insistence that the Palestinians recognise Israel as a Jewish state. This is no mere semantics. By declaring the state Jewish the Zionists look to bolster their position in refusing re-entry to the displaced Palestinians and to allow for forced resettlement of non-Jews i.e. Arabs.
“Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem … the Arab world commits itself to an AGREED solution to the refugee problem, thus addressing Israel’s concern that the demographic character of the Jewish state not be threatened.
…
there is no possibility of a solution that will lead to the changing of the character of the Jewish state.
Cyrus said:To summarize your point, you want to have your cake and eat it too. Sorry, you can't do that. (That's an American Exprission for wanting to have it both ways, if your not from the US and are unfamiliar with the expression).
AhmedEzz said:Please people try to focus one bit
AhmedEzz said:... I don't care about Hamas, I care about civilian casualties and destruction of limited infrastructure.
AhmedEzz said:So you are all arguing that Israel already did its best to avoid civilian casualties.
AhmedEzz said:While I on the other hand think that Israel carelessly targets Hamas regardless of the number of casualties or the amount of destruction done to the civilian areas and to the infrastructure...are we in agreement so far?
AhmedEzz said:Please people try to focus one bit and you'll see what I'm talking about. I don't care about Hamas, I care about civilian casualties and destruction of limited infrastructure.
AhmedEzz said:Hamas is a terrorist organization with its own foreign agenda, it has naught to do with Palestinian resistance.
… and that your concern is avoiding civilian casualties …AhmedEzz said:Alright so, hamas is wrong - all the kind of wrong you can imagine-. It is using the lives of innocent (yes, innocent) people to achieve its goals. No matter how many Palestinian civilian is dead,they don't care.
So you are all arguing that Israel already did its best to avoid civilian casualties. While I on the other hand think that Israel carelessly targets Hamas regardless of the number of casualties or the amount of destruction done to the civilian areas and to the infrastructure...are we in agreement so far?
That doesn't exactly look like an unbiased source. :tongue: A quick google search suggests the ship was trying to run a blockade at the time...jreelawg said:I can't imagine how precise Israel is being if they have even attacked a U.S. representative, doctors, and a CNN journalists, in a ship carrying humanitarian aid.
AhmedEzz said:Please people try to focus one bit and you'll see what I'm talking about. I don't care about Hamas, I care about civilian casualties and destruction of limited infrastructure.
So you are all arguing that Israel already did its best to avoid civilian casualties. While I on the other hand think that Israel carelessly targets Hamas regardless of the number of casualties or the amount of destruction done to the civilian areas and to the infrastructure...are we in agreement so far?
Hurkyl said:That doesn't exactly look like an unbiased source. :tongue: A quick google search suggests the ship was trying to run a blockade at the time...
jreelawg said:Hmm, a blockade on international waters? I didn't know they could do that?
jreelawg said:… in a ship carrying humanitarian aid …
The Dignity is carrying 3 tons of aid and … US representative Cynthia McKinney.
(and she's now only a former Congressman )McKinney gained national attention for remarks she made following the 9/11 attacks in 2001. She controversially alleged that the United States had advance knowledge of the attacks and that President George W. Bush may have been aware of the incipient attack but failed to warn New Yorkers,[17] allegedly due to his father's business interests: "It is known that President Bush's father, through the Carlyle Group, had–at the time of the attacks–joint business interests with the bin Laden construction company and many defense industry holdings, the stocks of which have soared since September 11." …
tiny-tim said:uhhh? how could a blockade be on Israel's own waters? :rofl:
Blockades do tend to be round another country!
tiny-tim said:Hi AhmedEzz!
Yes, let's cool down and focus, you've made it very clear (unlike some) that you don't support Hamas …
… and that your concern is avoiding civilian casualties …
(this thread would have been a lot more productive if you had started it, with a title something like "is Israel trying to avoid civilian casualties?")
Yes, that seems to be the issue …
you agree (I believe) that Hamas tries to kill as many civilians as it can, but you question whether Israel behaves substantially better …
Israel claims to try to avoid civilian deaths, but you point to the actual figures, and "we" reply …
i] on the UN figures, it's about 1 civilian death to 5 non-civilians
ii] Israel has leafleted and text-messaged civilians in specific areas, warning them to leave
iii] civilian deaths in war are unavoidable, yet Israel has a record of trying to avoid or minimise them
iv] Israel are nice guys, and Jewish, and therefore naturally regret any civilian deaths, and take them into account in making decisions
A comparison between Hamas and Israel makes no sense since we agree that one is a terrorist group and the other is an organized government.There is also a separate issue … is Israel obliged (and if so, how far), under either international law or morality, to avoid civilian deaths in certain circumstances, for example if Hamas deliberately launches rockets, or stores munitions, in a civilian area?
tiny-tim said:(this webpage is a full text of the original Initiative, preceded by many comments on it by the Minister)
So the Arab League see nothing wrong with Israel being a Jewish state, and even accepts that that characteristic is not to be threatened.
If the Palestinians choose to object, they are not going to get Arab League support.
:tongue2: oooh … cake! :tongue2:
It was a floating baby milk factory.jreelawg said:I can't imagine how precise Israel is being if they have even attacked a U.S. representative, doctors, and a CNN journalists, in a ship carrying humanitarian aid. Israel accused them of participating in terrorist activities.
Cyrus said:These questions have definite answers.
Not really. The answer is who started the provocation...
AhmedEzz said:I labeled Hamas as a terrorist organisation for many things including targeting unarmed civilians. If Israel wants to be labeled as a terrorist state, I suggest it does the same.
iii] I would like evidence that everything possible was done to avoid civilian casualties rather than blindingly bombing densely populated areas
Furthermore, if you take it from that angle, Islam forbids killing unarmed innocents. Besides, if its your mortal enemy, wouldn't you be reluctant to make the preparations to keep him unharmed.
Heads up : 360+ dead and approximately 2000 injured in just 4 days...should we expect more??
How could you possibly know who or what was on board? CNN now says 16 medical people and 'supplies'. How could the Israeli's know? Per CNN, the boat was indeed trying to run the Israeli blockade. The Israeli's say the impact happened when the Dignity tried to out maneuver the Israeli patrol boats. Also, the CNN report makes no mention of any shots fired.jreelawg said:I can't imagine how precise Israel is being if they have even attacked a U.S. representative, doctors, and a CNN journalists, in a ship carrying humanitarian aid. Israel accused them of participating in terrorist activities.
mheslep said:How could you possibly know who or what was on board? CNN now says 16 medical people and 'supplies'. How could the Israeli's know? Per CNN, the boat was indeed trying to run the Israeli blockade. The Israeli's say the impact happened when the Dignity tried to out maneuver the Israeli patrol boats. Also, the CNN report makes no mention of any shots fired.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/30/gaza.aid.boat/index.html
mheslep said:How could you possibly know who or what was on board? CNN now says 16 medical people and 'supplies'. How could the Israeli's know? Per CNN, the boat was indeed trying to run the Israeli blockade. The Israeli's say the impact happened when the Dignity tried to out maneuver the Israeli patrol boats. Also, the CNN report makes no mention of any shots fired.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/30/gaza.aid.boat/index.html
jreelawg said:For one thing, it is wrong to just indiscriminately attack people on international waters.
Cyrus said:"Indiscriminately"?...... excuse me?
Do you not understand the concept of a blockaid? As in NO ENTRY?
These words actully have meanings to them, you know.